古典音樂版本比拼擂台 |
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回覆 (397): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
A comprehensive list indeed!  
To this I would like to add John Dunkerley who came to DECCA in 1969, making many famous recordings with Dutouit and Montreal Symphony Orchestra. Also Chris Hazell joining DECCA in 1973, whose recordings with Marriner and ASMF under Argo label are legendary.  
kh33
11-09-28
17:27:19
回覆 (397): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
limage, tea and scone on me. butter, Jam and cream? In that order, of course! If you do happen to be in town during weekday, Mandrian Oriental is only one stop from where I work. Just give me a few hours notice before hand.  
 
Thanks a lot for the list!  
 
To add to you comments on once in a blue moon, I do have a box set of Vox, Ravel piano works that are surprisingly good sounding.  
 
bobui
11-09-28
17:01:20
回覆 (397): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Recently, I collect the whole collection of Karajan Gold, to my surprise ( maybe nothing surprising to you ) they are of excellent sound quality.  
 
Last night, I have another go for Sibelius symphony no.2 by Colin Davis on RCA, I am sorry, I fall asleep after first movement, my brain simply cannot be excited by Sibelius music, I have no comment on his music and recording.
CKM
11-09-28
16:50:11
回覆 (396): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Quality of a recording depends by and large upon the guy on the recording console, i.e. the recording engineer. Hence, to be safe on your next purchase, it pays to find out who the recording engineer is to make sure you won't get the lemon as you have done time and again. There can be, however, pleasant surprises once in a blue moon, but with known engineers, you don't have to gamble every time.  
 
Here you are, the Best Recording Engineer List I have compiled from major recording companies on Classical Music. Mercury is not included, not because they are not good enough nor big enough, but because my collection is too small to be creditable. Mercury records were not readily available in HK back in a time when I built up my collection.  
 
DECCA:  
Roy Wallace  
Gordon Parry  
Kenneth Wilkinson  
Jack Law  
James Lock  
Stanley Goodall  
Colin Moorfoot  
 
EMI:  
Christopher Parker  
Michael Gray  
Robert Gooch  
Neville Boyling  
Mike Hatch  
 
RCA:  
Lewis Layton  
Arthur Lilley  
Allan Reeve  
John Crawford  
Bob Simpson  
Tony Falkner  
 
DG:  
Günter Hermanns  
Klaus Scheibe  
Karl August Naegler  
Hans-Peter Schweigmann  
 
DGG is a curious mixture of blessing and curse. They are fully capable of producing the very best recording on earth, but then a similar combination of casts can be utterly disappointing in the next instance. The verdict is, listen before you buy.  
 
Philips:  
Philips is much more consistent in their output, although the names of engineers are not known, either because they are not mentioned, or because we cannot read Dutch. You can’t be too wrong anyway.  
 
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If anyone should find my list deficient in any way, you are welcome to add names to make this list more complete.  
 
 
limage
11-09-28
16:26:53
回覆 (395): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
How is the sound of this first pressing EMI?  
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Kind of a bit of a surprise to me too to discover a stereo recording in 1955. Perhaps the Stereo versions were only avaiable around 1957 to 1959.  
 
No big surprise for the overall sound quality. Just the usual good sounding EMI. Put it this way, I really cant rememeber hearing a very bad EMI recording from late 50S to early 70S. EMI is just so bloody consistent. However, when it comes to dynamic, some DECCAs do give me way more surprise such as the Decca SXL2021 Massenet Le Cid and the SXL2019 The Four Seasons. When a Decca is at its best, the sound stage and attack are both top notch. Utterly the best!  
 
No big surprise for the overall quality. Just usual slightly brighter sounding DGG. I suppose you could say thinner sounding than most other labels. I wont border to argue lor! The thing about DGG LPs is that they were so diverisfy in their classical catergory, so many artists, so many copies still can be found and awefully cheap compare to nearly all other major labels. You just cant ignore them. Can you?  
 
In general, i do find that the difference between different pressings of a same recording label is less obvious that between different labels. That may well prove that Europeans do carry very different characters!  
 
And for RCA and Philips, emmmmmmmmm, perhaps you can surprise me lor!  
 
bobui
11-09-28
15:14:22
回覆 (394): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
How is the sound of this first pressing EMI?  
A recording made in 1955 and was in 'stereo'! Must must one of the earliest HMV stereo recording  
.  
kh33
11-09-28
12:29:46
回覆 (393): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Making the assumption that you guys still want to continue the Sibelius conversation, here is probably the only and last contribution I can offer to share with you all before my experience on Sibelius music run out.  
 
The person sitting next to Beecham is the man himself Sibelius. When Beecham completed all-Sibelius concert at the Royal Festival Hall in 1955, the Finnish Ambassador presented Beecham "the Order of the Rose of Finland". Whatever that means to the public!  
 
The source of the above info is from the back of the record.  
 
As for the Symphony 7, its will never be my favourite for sure. Perhaps a nice piece of music for a dream of the countryside on a sunny afternoon!  
 
 
 
bobui
11-09-28
11:53:19
回覆 (392): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
There are reason behind Barbirolli's expertise on Sibelius music:  
 
Quote from Wikipedia:  
 
Sibelius exerted considerable influence on symphonic composers and musical life, at least in English-speaking and Nordic countries. Successful Finnish symphonist Leevi Madetoja was a pupil of Sibelius. In Britain, Vaughan Williams and Arnold Bax both dedicated their 5th symphonies to Sibelius. Furthermore, Tapiola is prominently echoed in both Bax's Sixth Symphony and Moeran's Symphony in G Minor. The influence of Sibelius's compositional procedures is also strongly felt in the First Symphony of William Walton.[11] When these and several other major British symphonic essays were being written in and around the 1930s, Sibelius's music was very much in vogue, with conductors like Beecham and Barbirolli championing its cause both in the concert hall and on record. Walton's composer friend Constant Lambert even claimed that Sibelius was "the first great composer since Beethoven whose mind thinks naturally in terms of symphonic form".[12] Earlier, Granville Bantock had championed Sibelius, and the esteem was evidently mutual, since Sibelius dedicated his Third Symphony to the English composer and he went on to become the first President of the Bantock Society (in 1946). More recently, Sibelius was also one of the composers championed by Robert Simpson. Malcolm Arnold acknowledged his influence, and Arthur Butterworth continues to see Sibelius's music as a source of inspiration in his own work.[13]  
 
CKM
11-09-27
18:12:54
回覆 (391): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Although Sibelius is a hard nut for me, but there's a will, there's a way.  
 
Quote from Wikipedia on Music style of Sibelius music:  
 
Like many of his contemporaries, Sibelius was initially enamored of the music of Wagner. A performance of Parsifal at the Bayreuth Festival had a strong effect on him, inspiring him to write to his wife shortly thereafter, "Nothing in the world has made such an impression on me, it moves the very strings of my heart." He studied the scores of Wagner's operas Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, and Die Walküre intently. With this music in mind, Sibelius began work on an opera of his own, entitled Veneen luominen (The Building of the Boat).  
 
However, his appreciation for Wagner waned and Sibelius ultimately rejected Wagner's Leitmotif compositional technique, considering it to be too deliberate and calculated. Departing from opera, he later used the musical material from the incomplete Veneen luominen in his Lemminkäinen Suite (1893). He did, however, compose a considerable number of songs for voice and piano, whose early interpreters included Aino Ackté and particularly Ida Ekman.  
 
More lasting influences included Ferruccio Busoni, Anton Bruckner and Tchaikovsky. Hints of Tchaikovsky's music are particularly evident in works such as Sibelius's First Symphony (1899) and his Violin Concerto (1905). Similarities to Bruckner are most strongly felt in the 'unmixed' timbral palette and sombre brass chorales of Sibelius's orchestration, a fondness for pedal points, and in the underlying slow pace of the music.  
 
Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, he focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with a finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.[8]  
 
 
Portrait of Sibelius from 1894 by Eero JärnefeltThis self-contained structure stood in stark contrast to the symphonic style of Gustav Mahler, Sibelius's primary rival in symphonic composition. While thematic variation played a major role in the works of both composers, Mahler's style made use of disjunct, abruptly changing and contrasting themes, while Sibelius sought to slowly transform thematic elements. In November 1907 Mahler undertook a conducting tour of Finland, and the two composers had occasion to go on a lengthy walk together. Sibelius later reported that during the walk:  
 
“ I said that I admired [the symphony's] severity of style and the profound logic that created an inner connection between all the motifs... Mahler's opinion was just the reverse. 'No, a symphony must be like the world. It must embrace everything.'[9] ”  
 
However, the two rivals did find common ground in their music. Like Mahler, Sibelius made frequent use both of folk music and of literature in the composition of his works. The Second Symphony's slow movement was sketched from the motive of Il Commendatore in Don Giovanni, while the stark Fourth Symphony combined work for a planned "Mountain" symphony with a tone poem based on Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven". Sibelius also wrote several tone poems based on Finnish poetry, beginning with the early En Saga and culminating in the late Tapiola (1926), his last major composition.  
 
Over time, he sought to use new chord patterns, including naked tritones (for example in the Fourth Symphony), and bare melodic structures to build long movements of music, in a manner similar to Joseph Haydn's use of built-in dissonances. Sibelius would often alternate melodic sections with noble brass chords that would swell and fade away, or he would underpin his music with repeating figures which push against the melody and counter-melody.  
 
Sibelius's melodies often feature powerful modal implications: for example much of the Sixth Symphony is in the (modern) Dorian mode. Sibelius studied Renaissance polyphony, as did his contemporary, the Danish composer Carl Nielsen, and Sibelius's music often reflects the influence of this early music. He often varied his movements in a piece by changing the note values of melodies, rather than the conventional change of tempi. He would often draw out one melody over a number of notes, while playing a different melody in shorter rhythm. For example, his Seventh Symphony comprises four movements without pause, where every important theme is in C major or C minor; the variation comes from the time and rhythm. His harmonic language was often restrained, even iconoclastic, compared to many of his contemporaries who were already experimenting with musical Modernism. As reported by Neville Cardus in the Manchester Guardian newspaper in 1958,  
 
“ Sibelius justified the austerity of his old age by saying that while other composers were engaged in manufacturing cocktails he offered the public pure cold water.[10]  
CKM
11-09-27
18:10:58
回覆 (390): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
popular works like Classical Symphony or Romeo & Juliet ?  
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The folk dance 1st movement, OK la. Hey, I am learning to be humble and modest! So many high hands here la! Actually I do enjoy S Richter on Prokofiev Piano Sonatas 7 and concerto 5.  
 
bobui
11-09-27
17:56:11
回覆 (389): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
You mean you don't even enjoy Prokofiev's popular works like Classical Symphony or Romeo & Juliet ?  
 
 
 
cpsjj
11-09-27
17:43:38
回覆 (388): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Speaking of follow at times with Sibelius music! Guess what, I just dont even know where to start and when its about to end. Same problem with Profoviev works! They are way out of my reach, "a bridge too far la"! Having Sibelius and Profoviev at home doesnt seems to do me any good other than the slight feeling of owning an intellectual property!  
 
Oh, Peter and the Wolf, still love it and thats not the same. It makes me feel YOUNG!
bobui
11-09-27
16:46:22
回覆 (387): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
I also find Sibelius rather difficult to follow at times given my slender share of artistic sensibility. To make up for this, I have to go several times over the same piece which, like Tapiola, may still be way above my dumb head.  
 
Shorter little pieces, the Two Serious Melodies Op.77 and the Two Serenades Op. 69 along with his Violin Concerto of course, are nonetheless ravishingly beautiful.  
 
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limage
11-09-27
14:41:41
回覆 (386): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
To me, Beecham's reading is particularly captivating, especially on the 4th movement. It is however marred by poor mono sound which then is automatically rejected by Limage for any comparison.  
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Ah, lucky me, I do have one Sibelius Symphony 7 with Beecham in EMI Stereo which i have almost forgotten about it. Perhaps I shall really sit down and listen to it this weekend. By the way the Sibelus Violin Concerto is the one i like about from the composer. A bit tragic and sad to me on the Allegro!  
bobui
11-09-27
13:26:07
回覆 (385): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
CKM, it's always wonderful to read your stuff!  
 
ps: how's the backhand?  
 
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His backhand is lethal as ever. I know because I'm his double partner competing in a local tournament.  
kh33
11-09-27
12:02:35
回覆 (385): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
What do you mean by "romantic time"?, "romantic time with a lady"  
 
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I am glad that we all carry different interpretations on what would be our ideal "romantic time". Isn't "Romantic time" really should be defined by who is your lady or what is a lady to you? The noun/subject determine the apporporiate use of adjective.
bobui
11-09-27
11:31:37
回覆 (387): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
cpsjj,  
 
Sibelius was a hard nut for me to crack previously, although I always love Tchaikovsky's music, I cannot find any similiarity between Tchaikovsky and Sibelius. To me Sibelius totally original, like a humble and calm gentlemen who is very careful in his speech, but careful listening can reveal than his music has alot of hidden motif and link with other movements.  
 
I also have other versions by Bernstein, Ashkenasy, Szell, Davis and Monteux, but not Beecham.
CKM
11-09-27
11:29:54
回覆 (386): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
davidchan,  
 
They are both Scandinavian nationalism composer.
CKM
11-09-27
11:07:53
回覆 (385): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
kris,  
 
Thank you for your kind word. My backhand, like my music post here, is improving but way below professional level.
CKM
11-09-27
11:06:17
回覆 (384): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
CKM, it's always wonderful to read your stuff!  
 
ps: how's the backhand?  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
kris
11-09-27
07:31:48
回覆 (383): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
if I have to choose a piece of music for a romantic time with a lady, I do rather choose Ben Webster or Miles.  
 
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bobui, I may have a very different view on that. What do you mean by "romantic time"?
kris
11-09-27
07:31:12
回覆 (382): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
What Sibelius music lack is beautiful melody, which make Grieg a more well known composer.  
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Hello CKM,  
 
Could you please enlighten me on why you were drawing a comparison between Sibelius and Grieg?
davidchan
11-09-27
05:19:57
回覆 (381): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
I keep coming back to the version by Barbirolli/Royal Philharmonic though I have others such as Karajan, Askenazy, Pierre Montoux and Ormandy. Barbirolli gets the mood just right.  
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Seems like all great readings of Sibelius 2 come from British conductors, Barbirolli, Beecham, Davis.............. Barbirolli's comes out the winner with both great performance and excellent sound quality, engineered by the great Kenneth Wilkinson. To me, Beecham's reading is particularly captivating, especially on the 4th movement. It is however marred by poor mono sound which then is automatically rejected by Limage for any comparison.  
 
 
 
cpsjj
11-09-27
00:01:07
回覆 (380): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Anne Fischer have a Beethoven Sonata cycle on Hungeraton, have you heard of it?  
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CKM,  
 
I have the boxset.You can take them for a listen if you want. You might also want to compare them with another famous reading by Schnabel.  
 
 
cpsjj
11-09-26
23:39:01
回覆 (379): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
What Sibelius music lack is beautiful melody  
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When Sibelius composed his second symphony, he was still very much a postromanticist, heavily influenced by Tchaikovsky. Not until when he composed the 4th symphony that he became more provocative and antiromantic, breaking away from the lush melodies and orchestration of his prior works. He also shifted from the long development of the Mahler and Bruckner symphonic style and focused on short motifs with terse kind of development. This inconsistency in style did not earn him the reputation he deserves and attracted fierce criticisms from people like Virgil Thomson who condemned the second symphony to be "vulgar, self-indulgent and provincial beyond all description"; I must say I totally disagree.  
 
 
 
cpsjj
11-09-26
23:28:54
回覆 (378): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
I have kind of created the habit long ago to invest a lot of my time in searching and listening to only a narrow group of composers and pieces that I've always had the liking and keeping many different versions or more than one exact copies of the same. It really is not too wise to neglect those lesser known to me. Wider and broader selection surely is the fun I want more! Enlighten me on Jean Sibelius please! Wow, Clare Haskil in box set, woooooow
bobui
11-09-26
20:49:14
回覆 (377): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
What Sibelius music lack is beautiful melody, which make Grieg a more well known composer.--  
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I find that Sibelius second symphony is hauntingly beautiful with a characteristic Nordic feel. I keep coming back to the version by Barbirolli/Royal Philharmonic though I have others such as Karajan, Askenazy, Pierre Montoux and Ormandy.  
Barbirolli gets the mood just right.  
 
The Annie Fischer Beethoven cycle is released on CD only and I have not heard it.  
A top pick by some reviewers.  
I got her selected Beethoven piano sonata and third piano concerto LPs.  
kh33
11-09-26
19:59:43
回覆 (377): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Anne Fischer have a Beethoven Sonata cycle on Hungeraton, have you heard of it?
CKM
11-09-26
18:11:20
回覆 (376): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Have gone through a few album over the last few days, some Sibelius symphony no.2 by two `B' conductor, one Barbirolli on EMI another Bernstein on DGG, result are most interesting, but I am still tunning my brain towards Sibelius music, which is concise, economical, logical but exciting. What Sibelius music lack is beautiful melody, which make Grieg a more well known composer.
CKM
11-09-26
18:09:51
回覆 (376): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
if I have to choose a piece of music for a romantic time with a lady, I do rather choose Ben Webster or Miles. ---  
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For me I'll definitely play Jane Birkin's Je t'aime,shortening the warm up time.  
Haskil is one of the two lady pianists that I admired most, the other being Annie Fischer whose LP is so difficult to get. I do have 2 box sets by Haskil and her 10" Chopin Concerto two and few other LPs. Her Mozart has that poetic touch that is so unique and unforgettable.  
kh33
11-09-26
18:06:56
回覆 (375): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Always like the sound of EMI. They are natural yet detailed, without .......... accuracy of DGG.  
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Oh, thats a very good summary on each of their characteristics. I shall take it as reference! There is so much fun you can reterive from LPs! 4/5 of my collections are classical and the rest divided between Jazz and POP/rock n roll. As for Jazz, I can listen to it for hours and at the same time taking other committment or things that require the involvement of my eyes, mouth, hands, feet, tummy, teeth, short ribs etc. For Classical, I almost always need to ignore everything else and end up having my bum stuck to the King's seat and do nothing but just dream along. When you are in a dream, you can't do anything else other than snoring and the illusion of yourself doing something. Sure you know what I mean!  
 
 
Well, lets put it this way, if I have to choose a piece of music for a romantic time with a lady, I do rather choose Ben Webster or Miles. Just to be sure i can still leave my eyes, mouth, hands, feet, tummy teeth and short ribs for other more important purpose! Sure you know what I mean!  
 
Show time - Two of my precious 10" records. I got them from a shop in New York almost 8 years back. The shop is called The Academy. I paid USD20.- for The Clara Haskil playing Schumann. He He!  
 
bobui
11-09-26
14:50:17
回覆 (374): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Weekend Sharing -  
 
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Interesting.  
Always like the sound of EMI. They are natural yet detailed, without the exaggeration of Mercury, the artificial flavour of RCA, the bottom heaviness of DECCA, the soft blurring of Philip and clinical accuracy of DGG. Their opera is second to none and their string tone is so ravishing.  
kh33
11-09-26
12:54:23
回覆 (373): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Weekend Sharing -  
 
Best thing to do in a rainy Sunday? Sleep, eat, listen to music and read! Here I like to share with you a book for all those who love LP "EMI The first 100 years". It tells story of how EMI was formed in 1931 from the merger of The Columbia and The Gramophone. For many years, the Columbia records were sold in cylinder form and the the Gramophone records were in disc, 7", 10". They were rivals with the Columbia took up a much larger market shares.  
 
The book tells you all you need to know on how records invented and made, the people behind and the many artists that were in the making of one of the largest record company. Over 350pp. Lots of photos and bios of artists. You may be able to get a used copy from Amazon. A must for record lovers!  
 
No, it doesnt come with free CDs but its a much better read than the recently published yellow colour "State of the Art, Deutsche Grammophon"!
bobui
11-09-25
13:39:19
回覆 (372): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
kh33, fancy an afternoon with Norma and wine?  
 
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Bobui, thanks for the suggestion. Why not?  
I only had one copy of Norma LP, the blue angel Callas.  
The Sutherland CD and Caballe DVD were left to dust.  
kh33
11-09-22
12:58:34
回覆 (371): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
My humble collection of Norma. Top right hand is the mono version Angel. As for the bottom two idnetical covers, one is blue Angel, the other is red with sliver writing. The decca is a narrow band, recording is good, intrepretation is emmmmmmmm. Sutherland is not really my prefer choice. She sang it with her husband conducting. Nothing usual, really! The orignal blue/silver is my love!  
 
kh33, fancy an afternoon with Norma and wine?  
 
bobui
11-09-22
12:29:21
回覆 (370): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
There is no comparison, Los Angeles is only second best.  
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If we happen to bump into each other in a record shop looking for "Carmen". We could probably be good friend! You take Callas, I get my Los Angeles. Happy day!  
 
S. Richter in HK - was it in late 70s. I was just growing teeth! No, just kidding!
bobui
11-09-22
11:23:59
回覆 (369): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
I would have no hesitation to spend the money on live performance of S Richter on Prokofiev, Zimerman on Chopin or de Los Angeles on Carmen  
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My biggest regret is missing the live performance of S. Richter and Celibidache/Munich Symphony in HK years ago.  
Talking about Los Angeles on Carmen with Beecham conducting, yes, she is good, with a sweet lovely voice and impeccable technique. But when I heard Callas, I saw a Carmen standing in front of me with all her blood, flesh and desire. There is no comparison, Los Angeles is only second best.  
kh33
11-09-22
10:21:03
回覆 (368): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
only goes one way--up  
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Much appreciated for your kind words! But sorry, it is what it is, i am a full range horn loaded silly greedy pig! There is almost zero chance I would sell my collection for money and never my desire to make a few dollar more from a much loved hobby. Money wasted! I would have no hesitation to spend the money on live performance of S Richter on Prokofiev, Zimerman on Chopin or de Los Angeles on Carmen. Wish I am a bit more older! You know what I mean!
bobui
11-09-21
23:09:29
回覆 (367): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
You know what? I think it was silly that I paid so much for a first blue/silver  
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Not at all. Considered it a wise investment. The price of the blue/silver Columbia and wide band DECCA only goes one way--up. I regret that I haven't bid for the original few years back when the price was more reasonable.  
kh33
11-09-21
19:51:50
回覆 (366): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
It is for Callas that I strive to improve my sound reproduction system  
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Casta Diva, tears in my eyes!  
 
You know what? I think it was silly that I paid so much for a first blue/silver. The sound quality has no real difference compare with the second label I also have at a friction of the price at time when I got it from bay watch. Just call me silly greedy if you ever meet me, ok!  
 
For the Tosca, I prefer the earlier mono recording. Perhaps, one day soon, come and hear it at my den. And go without saying, I only keep LPs. No particular reasons other than larger cover image! Another silly greedy habit of mine!  
 
Ah, thanks a lot ! That would be the Mozart piano concerto No.23, I shall rush back to my den to listen to it tonight, can't wait.
bobui
11-09-21
18:08:13