古典音樂版本比拼擂台 |
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回覆 (45): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Eric and I visited a new CD shop in MK three nights ago, apart from listening music through the owner's Accuphase amps + crossover driving JBL, I had a genuine talk with the owner Elvis , who is so well-versed of classical / jazz music and HiFi and worked at A&B Sound in Kowloon Bay 5 years before.  
 
He showed me a list of recommended versions about Beethoven Violin Concerto, written by a senior violinist (chinese, 80 years old now )who knew lots of violin maestro last century, I am so surprised that the list neither enlist the account of Kogan nor Milstein, but lots of historic / stereo accounts played by different maestros. Hope that the owner of clazzmusic can lend this list to Eric in order to post it for your gentlemen perusal.  
 
BTW, I dig a discontinued CD - Kurt Sanderling conducts Statkapelle Dresden (Denon, Eurodisc) at his shop, what a gem!  
 
http://clazzmusic.com
george1977
08-12-30
10:16:02
回覆 (44): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
Hi CP  
 
I would like to know if your OSCAR's Beethoven is the same as mine?  
 
John  
 
 
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/CD_John/0038.jpg?t=1230599853
Gingers
08-12-30
09:18:13
回覆 (36): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
"買多少郵費都一樣,是一個危險的網站. "  
 
Do you mean JPC is not yet good enough in fraud prevention?  
 
How much you paid in the group order last time, also from JPC?  
 
Thanks!  
 
BTW, not sure if Classicalkan has join this forum already? Anyway, when this forum is open on 1 January 2009, he may come here to organize the group order. :-)
rcwy
08-12-30
06:41:50
回覆 (41): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台-Casals Box Set
Dear cp,  
 
 
Do you think that HKD500 for this set of Casals box set is acceptable ?  
 
^__^
Vash
08-12-30
05:18:49
回覆 (35): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Hello rcwy,  
 
Please check classicalkan's posting in r33 "Any classical fans here?" thread on 08-12-29 22:58 about group ordering from jpc website.  
 
You can think of the Du Pre 17 CD set at EUR 39.99 now. FYI, I get this set via a group order half a year ago. Last time, shipping cost is fixed at EUR 13.99 for whatever amount.  
 
買多少郵費都一樣,是一個危險的網站. :)
erictang
08-12-30
00:41:48
回覆 (47): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
看來大家已對貝多芬鋼琴第五号協奏曲各版本有一定的了解,但擂台是殘酷的,終極版本只有一個,所以我建議來個終極表决。表决以五分為滿分,評分標準為:  
1分:此版本不可取  
2分:此版本缺點甚多但仍有可取突出之處  
3分:整體表現出色  
4分:整體表現出色之餘有突出的見解或特色  
5分:各方面表現完美,充滿特色,難以超越  
所有參與者都可就手頭上各版本投票一次,該版本各人分數總和為該版本分數(越多人投票與每票得分高的版本就是最佳版本):  
 
實例:  
 
CKM on Beethoven piano concerto no.5  
Kovacevich/Davis (1969)------------------------3 point  
Michelangeli/Giulini ( 1979)--------------------3point  
Pollini/Bohm( 1979)-------------------------------5 point  
Arrau/Davis(19800-------------------------------- 5 point  
Aimard/Harnoncourt------------------------------4 point  
Kempff/Leitner--------------------------------------3 point  
Gulda/Szell------------------------------------------2 point  
 
此擂台沒結束時間,大家可盡量多聽不同版本並作評分。結果會在每次收到評分後更新,亦豉勵為評分作簡短解釋。
CKM
08-12-29
21:47:47
回覆 (46): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
自然流暢平易近人的「帝皇」網誌分類:Beethoven | 網誌日期:56分鐘前  
在limage,Kh33 與CP的推薦之下終於買了Kempff 演奏的「帝皇」。這個版本錄於1961年,距今已48年了,半世紀的風月洗禮未在這錄音上留下痕跡,我的CD版呈現了良好動態與真實的鋼琴音色。  
 
Kempff 是受很多鋼琴家尊敬的大師,他的鋼琴奏鳴曲集是許多人的首選,但我卻不大喜歡他比較清淡的演奏手法,反之更喜歡Gulda, Gilels, Pollini 等音色豐富的琴音。  
 
經過兩天反覆比較聆聽,我對Kempff的了解加深了,他彈奏的「帝皇」如他一貫的風格是一個自然流暢清新的演繹,動態對比也比我一貫認識的Kempff 大,第二樂章更以偏快的速度彈出優美的具歌唱性的演繹。  
 
但這版本如Kovacevich 的名版一樣失之在音色方面,Kempff 的音色比較單一,較之Michelangeli 與Pollini 故然遜色,比起同是八+歲的Arrau 千變萬化的弱音也遜一籌。另一方面始終Kempff 錄這版本時已垂垂老矣,在快速樂段常有力不從心之感,觸鍵也時有欠平均。  
 
整體結構掌握不俗,速度適中,但細節比較模糊,始終認為同是八十歲的Arrau 技巧在Kempff 之上,當然和Pollini 與Michelangeli 等技巧大師更是相形見拙。同是清新的演奏Kempff 的速度比Aimard自然少斧鑿痕跡,但Aimard 的音色比Kempff 優美,但兩版本比分野在伴奏,Harnoncourt 清新透明,鋼琴融入樂隊之中,細節乾淨清淅,但Leitner 常有盖過Kempff 琴音之處。  
 
可以說「帝皇」的演繹在這48 年間進步了,Kempff 這前浪也被後浪蓋過了。  
CKM
08-12-29
21:18:01
回覆 (45): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
a pleasure to look at the "Jigsaw Puzzle" pictures you have been busy with  
_______________________________________________________________  
 
Yes, erictang. That's really quite a bit of work; so please don't make me do it again. :-)  
 
 
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
18:52:48
回覆 (44): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
--> Mind telling us what he has shortlisted in his recommendation?  
 
I would like to. But I've only browsed the list once, too bad I can only recall there are two (or three) Heifetz, two Schneiderhan and one Wicks.  
 
It is always a pleasure to look at the "Jigsaw Puzzle" pictures you have been busy with.
erictang
08-12-29
17:53:41
回覆 (43): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Sorry, this one is more complete.  
 
I don't have a good enough flash and wide angle. :-(  
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
17:21:10
回覆 (42): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
The list is drafted after his studying on "all" (according to the shop manager) recordings available in the market  
________________________________________________________________________________________________  
 
erictang,  
 
I assume he must have reviewed many more than this. :-)  
 
Mind telling us what he has shortlisted in his recommendation?  
 
For me, Schneiderhan, Shumsky, Francescatti and Wicks are definitely on the list.  
 
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
17:17:21
回覆 (41): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
how would you compare Casals and Starker  
____________________________________  
 
Starker is also one of my most respected cellists and I rate his virtuosity even higher than Rostropovich. He could be one of the top virtuosi in our time but he chose to follow Reiner as his principal cellist and later secluded to purely teaching. His intonation so famous with his firm grip rather than vibrato is one of the purest as exhibited in his Kodaly. He is, however, too well-mannered and at times boring. May be it's because of the mediocre recording quality or limitation in our hifi systems that isn't able to reveal his beautiful intonation which is so obvious listening live.  
 
His most famous recording and probably the best recorded playing is the Kodaly which many critics had once doubted it had been electronically manipulated for that purity of tone.  
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
15:16:08
回覆 (41): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Hello cp,  
 
George and I visit the CD shop (http://www.clazzmusic.com/indexc.htm) in Mongkok Saturday afternoon. The shop manager showed us a 3 pages list (單行紙, 隔行, each recording on a line) of recommended Beethoven Violin Concerto hand-written by a 80+ years years old violinist who previously played in local and overseas orchestra. The list is drafted after his studying on "all" (according to the shop manager) recordings available in the market.  
 
I just skimmed through it and found Camilla Wicks you mentioned on 08-12-20 17:07 in r33. Perhaps she is the only female violinist there.  
 
The list is very likely from an artistical view point, Schneiderhan is there, but not with Jochum. if my memory serves me, hot item like Milstein/William Steinberg is neither there. Audiophile may be suprised/disappointed by the list. :)
erictang
08-12-29
12:23:49
回覆 (40): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
好!一於照單執'碟',多謝指引。  
 
另外,最近朋友到訪帶來這張 Starker plays Baker 既 DAD,聽得我興奮莫名,亦成為小弟下張購物清單項目之一。
Vash
08-12-29
11:59:12
回覆 (40): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
 
A bargain set of Casals at Prades with 13 CDs.  
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
11:58:59
回覆 (39): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Some of Casals recitals  
 
Photobucket
cpsjj
08-12-29
11:46:44
回覆 (38): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Wow...but then how would you compare Casals and Starker ? Actually, my current favorite is Starker as my collection from him is still growing up....  
 
 
Cheers !
Vash
08-12-29
11:44:10
回覆 (37): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Morning Vash,  
 
I do notice you have a number of LPs which shouldn't be in the library of a novice which reveals that you are quite a veteran music lover.  
 
A lot of people just sneer at Casals' old historic recordings of sonatas. In his later years he only recorded more as a conductor. As erictang previously pointed out, it is even more enlightening to watch Casals palying on DVD with his superb fingering.  
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
11:28:42
回覆 (36): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
早晨 cp,  
 
 
小弟從閣下對音樂既 posts 學了不小,可以讓我湊下熱鬧嗎?  
 
這是手上僅有的兩隻 Casals 膠膠,很想補購他的 CD 版本…  
 
 
^__^  
 
Vash
08-12-29
11:16:34
回覆 (35): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
Talking about cellists, we cannot go without mentioning Pablo Casals, the father of all modern cellists if not all cellists at all, whose birthday is today 29 December.  
 
There were cello virtuosi before him but none was able to produce a tone as euphonious as that from the violin and it was Casals who single-handedly brought the cello to the eminence it has achieved today.  
 
This Elgar concerto played by the king of cellists was conducted by none but the Elgar expert Sir Adrian Boult.  
 
cpsjj
08-12-29
10:48:26
回覆 (34): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
呢套17CD集應該仲低買! 見過本地 CD 店有售.  
 
--------------------------------------  
 
Eric,  
 
I found this set already, price is $700, not too bad. But I may wait for its Spring/Summer/Winter sales.  
-------------------------------------------------  
 
The price in the web is only EUR 39.99 only. 香港唱片公司食水真深!  
 
rcwy
08-12-28
22:16:58
回覆 (33): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
呢套17CD集應該仲低買! 見過本地 CD 店有售.  
 
--------------------------------------  
 
Eric,  
 
I found this set already, price is $700, not too bad. But I may wait for its Spring/Summer/Winter sales.
rcwy
08-12-28
20:04:10
回覆 (33): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
No problem kh. I get you the CD on Tuesday.  
 
 
limage
08-12-28
11:35:38
回覆 (32): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Hello rcwy,  
 
呢套17CD集應該仲低買! 見過本地 CD 店有售.  
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4681849?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist
erictang
08-12-28
11:26:17
回覆 (29): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
' PS. kh may care to note that the CD copy of Kempff beats the LP original by quite a margin in every respect! '  
 
limage,  
 
Can you bring me the CD later so that I can compare between the two formats?
kh33
08-12-28
10:59:14
回覆 (31): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
du Pre 的 1967年1月在俄羅斯 LIVE 的錄音, Choice 賣 $135, 只有一隻 20多分鐘 Elgar cello concerto 是 stereo, 有點肉痛, 但在 HMV 竟是 $180! 相較之下那 3CD 精選就是十分低買!  
 
rcwy
08-12-28
10:38:39
回覆 (30): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
這 booklet 也有可讀之處.  
 
rcwy
08-12-28
10:31:41
回覆 (29): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
星期六在 HMV 見有這 三CD EMI du Pre 精選, 內面有 1965年8月錄音的 Elgar cello concerto, 心喜!  
 
那時 du Pre 芳華 20, 尚未遇上 Daniel 的愛, 表現手法中規中矩, 與 1967年1月在俄羅斯 LIVE 的錄音比較就是少了一份激情. 但 1965 的錄音約略較佳!  
 
(小的愚見, 不合意莫打頭!)
rcwy
08-12-28
10:29:23
回覆 (28): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
I will be busy this afternoon to look for Kempff and Perahia.  
 
By the way, do you enjoy the process of comparative analysis on Beethoven piano concerto ?
CKM
08-12-27
12:19:52
回覆 (27): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
My indebtedness to gingers for loaning me the missing Emperors so that I could run the comparations for a little more than 2 hours last night. The 4 versions of Beethoven’s Emperor:  
 
DGG Kempff/Berlin/Leitner, 1962 Werner Wolf  
PHI Arrau/Dresden/Davis, 1984 NA  
CBS Perahia/Concertgebouw/Haitink, 1987 Stan Goodall  
RCA Rubinstein/London Phil/Barenboim, 1976 Wilkinson  
 
Perahia’s rendition is indeed superior to Arrau’s in terms of sheer eloquence. Despite having Stanley Goodall on the Decca recording console, it’s a pity that Sony is still unable to give us a recording without undue dynamic deficiencies.  
 
My vote goes to Leitner more positively now — his reading is eminently more melodic, his phrasing tightly knit, pace chromatically rhythmic and the ambience filled strongly with “heroic pathos”. Kempff plays with a stately dignity and aristocratic arrogance that impel great admiration.  
 
Rubinstein and Barenboim come a close second in my preference.  
 
Hence, for audio freaks I’ll play him the Rubinstein straight, thanks to Kenneth Wilkinson on transparencies of the recording. For pure music lovers, I have no hesitation to recommend Kempff.  
 
---------------------------------------  
 
PS. kh may care to note that the CD copy of Kempff beats the LP original by quite a margin in every respect!  
 
limage
08-12-27
11:38:19
回覆 (26): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
Eric,  
 
What a pleasant surprise to find you joining us!  
 
The pleasure is very much ours. I hope you would find yourself more at home here with more classical fans coming in very soon.  
 
 
limage
08-12-27
11:30:35
回覆 (25): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
新丁報到,請多多指教.  
 
有空可到我新設的 blog 瀏覽, 基本上是 r33 的舊 posting.  
http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/erickftang2008
erictang
08-12-26
23:18:45
回覆 (24): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
 
And for this very reason, CKM is right to open this thread so that people can see for themselves the value of the particular choice that appeals to him most  
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________  
 
 
Limage,  
 
That's a fair comment and appropriately pays tribute to CKM for starting this thread. It is indeed impractical for anyone to have listened to all the different readings of a repertoire; but everyone will come up with his own favourite out of a few different readings that he has come across. The idea of this thread, if I get it correct and if CKM agrees, is to share what we reckon as the best and get to know what others esteem as a good recording; and if that happens to be something we haven't seen before, get a chance to appreciate what those strengths are, thereby expediting our discovery into the world of music. Likewise we want others to share the joy of appreciating an excellent performance, just like you want each and every one of us to appreciate Boulez's Ebony Concerto.  
 
The fact is there is a nut out there who has strenuously listened to and compared 18 plus different versions of the Emperor Concerto ( I actually have slightly more than 18 versions) and came up with a recommendation. You may agree or disagree if you have known these readings before. There would be no argument cos each one appreciates and likes a reading very differently. You may also opt to skip that for reason that you never like the style of e.g. Murray Perahia or Gina Bachauer. But if you don't want to know about it just because you don't have it and refuse to try it, and adamantly consider what you have is the greatest, that's not much better than an ostrich. I of course do not arrogantly mean you haven't heard anything and I've heard all, but that kind of ostrich attitude suggests one wouldn't know too much after all. I am sure you do not have that as you gladly get Tong Li, Sa Ding Ding etc. upon Gingers' recommendation, but you seem to advocate that ostrich attitude here.  
 
A note of clarification, I am also very selective in buying but I would not restrict myself to a number of different readings just like I would not hesitate to attend concerts of different soloists performing a same repertoire; but I might think twice going for a same soloist or orchestra even for a different repertoire. For the great emperor concerto, isn't just the names of these musicians playing the great concerto enticing?  
Curzon/Knappertsbusch, Fischer/Furtwanger, Fleisher/Szell, Gieseking/Rother, Giles/Szell, Hess/Sargent, Horowitz/Reiner, Michelangeli/Celibidache, Serkin/Bernstein, van Cliburn/Reiner..........................  
 
 
 
 
cpsjj
08-12-26
00:21:17
回覆 (17): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Since the verdict is not decided yet, I put foreward another heavy contender---Walter Gieseking and Alceo Galliera directing the Philmonia Orchestra. While Gieseking's Debussy is second to none, his Beethoveen is no slouch either. From the start he grabs your attention with his strong robust tone and majestic character. He then follows this with a graceful, poetic second movement and then ends in a powerful, unforgettable coda. The accompaniment by Galliera and Philmonic Orchestra is just right on the mark.
kh33
08-12-25
22:51:53
回覆 (17): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Since the verdict is not decided yet, I put foreward another heavy contender---Walter Gieseking and Alceo Galliera directing the Philmonia Orchestra. While Gieseking's Debussy is second to none, his Beethoveen is no slouch either. From the start he grabs your attention with his strong robust tone and majestic character. He then follows this with a graceful, poetic second movement and then ends in a powerful, unforgettable coda. The accompaniment by Galliera and Philmonic Orchestra is just right on the mark.
kh33
08-12-25
22:51:52
回覆 (16): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
所謂文無第一武無第二,題目本身已充滿可辯之處,但願音樂欣賞能力能在切磋之中得到相長。
CKM
08-12-25
19:58:03
回覆 (15): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/s2647340/article?mid=752&prev=758&next=740
Gingers
08-12-25
16:30:43
回覆 (22): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
Gulda 是一位古怪的鋼琴家,常常在古典音樂會中加入Jazz 曲目,但在德國他可是大師級人馬,在日本也有很高的地位。他在60年代未為Amadeo 錄的全套貝多芬鋼琴奏嗚曲當中緊張刺激又不失細密的演奏使我驚嘆不已,一直視之為首選。  
 
在1964年Gulda 與另一位緊張大師George Szell 帶領Vienna Philharmonic 演奏了「帝皇」協奏曲,說起Szell這位樂團的獨裁者,一手將Cleveland Orchestra 由寂寂無名的地方樂團訓練成世界一流的樂團便知他是一位頂尖的指揮。  
 
兩位怪傑的合作成就了這一剌激非常的現場錄音,大家你追我逐,互不相讓,Gulda 飛快而力量十足的演奏配上Szell 如行軍一般的伴奏,只可惜刺激有餘,温情不足。現場觀眾然極為興奮。錄音是奧地利電台的Mono 錄音,效果不佳。  
 
這CD多謝George 送贈。  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 
How to compare with this version which was recorded in 1971, I think :-)  
 
 
Gingers
08-12-25
16:23:40
回覆 (21): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
CP  
 
Whilst Arrau / Staatskapelle Dresden/ Davis is always in my heart, I have never forgotton Perahia/ Concertgebuow/ Haitink.  
 
Superb and grand playing.  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 
 
The Fifth Concerto, the Emperor, remains the most popular, and has been recorded innumerable times. First choice for me is perhaps Murray Perahia on Sony. Wonderful playing, very much from the eighteenth century, and a finale that really sparkles, but which does not lack power. Beautiful sound too, but rather short measure.  
I understand why some like the Emperor to be played in a style akin to Tchaikovsky's First Concerto, in a grand romantic style (e.g. as Horowitz used to play it). I also used to like this approach, but Perahia's is more stylistically idiomatic. Don't for a moment think that this version is underpowered, because it certainly is not: his playing is full of authority and the orchestral playing under Haitink is the most thrilling I've heard in this piece.  
 
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concerto-Piano-Orchestra-Emperor/dp/B00138D2US/ref=dm_ap_alb3
Gingers
08-12-25
15:50:52
回覆 (23): 古典音樂版本比拼擂台
 
CP,  
 
Now let’s be fair. We all buy records upon recommendations from the reviewers, or from friends whose tastes we trust, or judging by the performers, or by recording engineers, or otherwise have the chance to be impressed by it somewhere else, before we buy the same piece of music. It is not practicable, nor financially worthwhile, to buy every different versions of the same repertoire whenever they become available. I, for one, rarely keep more than 3 versions of the same piece within my collection of nearly 3,000 records. I have to be a little more discriminate with new purchases.  
 
So unless everyone of us is as dedicated and as generous as you are to buy everything that comes into your way, there is no way we could compare within our collection every different reading the world has to offer. And for this very reason, CKM is right to open this thread so that people can see for themselves the value of the particular choice that appeals to him most. To really decide which one is the best, however, is a matter that inevitably invites debate, unless we have the chance to listen to it within one listening session while the also-rans are obviously way behind the champion.  
 
Hopefully we are going to hold comparative sessions in the future to evaluate different versions of the same title that may be of value not only to ourselves, but to readers of this forum.  
 
 
limage
08-12-25
13:43:31