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回覆 (50): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
just have a interconnect of 6 inches long and make sure your source won't be loaded down by the volume control. may be you prefer 7 inches. that's fine as well^-^
drwkng
12-03-05
16:30:28
回覆 (49): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
pre-amp > active Xover > power amps  
_____________________________________  
 
To tidy up a bit, it should be  
 
Source > passive preamp > active Xover  
 
The power amp is out of the equation as I didn't realise you have active Xover. So it's the source output & Xover input impedance you have to consider. It's hard to explain without figures from this simple mind. So examples again  
 
Source output 1k  
passive preamp 50k  
active Xover ( no idea what the norm should be), just say 20k for SS ones  
 
Source > passive preamp  
1k to 50k, 1k/51k you have roughly 2% signal loss disregarding the interconnects & contacts, but it's already pretty good  
 
passive preamp > active Xover  
12.5k to 20k, 12.5k/32.5k wow, approx 1/3 of the signal is gone, mamamia.  
 
So, do your math, that's all I can say. If you still can't figure it out, serve me the numbers & I'll do it for you
Derek2A3
12-03-05
16:24:58
回覆 (48): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Depends. Better double check the output impedance of the source & input impedance of the power amp before commiting on anything. Reasons?  
 
Take for example your 50K volume, it's input resistance is 50K ohm, & at worst, the output will be 12.5K ohm, Are these two figures going to cause a lot of signal loss when matched with your source & power amp? We haven't even considered the interconnects yet.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 
Just to complicate matters further. My setup is  
 
pre-amp > active Xover > power amps  
 
the power amp input impedance is 200K ohms  
 
volume pot on active pre-amp is normally 50K I guess  
 
so what is the verdict ?
daiwok
12-03-05
16:10:49
回覆 (47): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Lord CP can only make it on Saturday, so we will have a roast pork shoot out instead of a BBQ sorry I mean BBR shoot out @@ !!
daiwok
12-03-05
16:08:12
回覆 (46): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Daiwok and CP,  
 
Please advise me date and time, I'll make best to fit your schedule.
dkyyu
12-03-05
16:03:00
回覆 (45): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Since this is a passive pre-amp then I should be going for the lowest resistance to have the highest gain right ?  
_____________________________________________________________  
 
Depends. Better double check the output impedance of the source & input impedance of the power amp before commiting on anything. Reasons?  
 
Take for example your 50K volume, it's input resistance is 50K ohm, & at worst, the output will be 12.5K ohm, Are these two figures going to cause a lot of signal loss when matched with your source & power amp? We haven't even considered the interconnects yet.
Derek2A3
12-03-05
16:01:38
回覆 (44): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Although I have asked Lord CP on this subject, but I now have a choice of 10K, 25K and 100K which I guess is the volume pot resistance ? if I was buying a volume pot normally this would be 50K. Since this is a passive pre-amp then I should be going for the lowest resistance to have the highest gain right ?  
 
 
SHUNT type: Only two resistors in signal path  
Switching type: MBB (Make Befor Break)  
 
Number of steps: 48  
Attenuation range: -60 dB ... 0 dB  
Attenuation per step: steps 1 to 11 - 2dB, 12 to 48 - 1dB  
 
Contact material: Hard silver 99,99% Ag  
Silver thickness: 30 um  
Polished wiper and contact pins  
Entire signal path silvered  
Silver is put direct on copper  
Extremely short signal path  
Channel matching: +/-0.1 dB  
Resistance: 10, 25, 50, 100, 250 kohm or custom values  
Resistors: Vishay/Dale RN55 1% 100ppm , 1/8W, low noise, non-inductive, metal film  
 
Mechanical life: > 50 000 cycles  
CNC machined PA11 aluminium body  
Precision ball bearing support  
Shaft diameter: 6 mm  
Indexing angle: 7,2 deg
http://www.khozmo.com/products_dale_ladder.html
daiwok
12-03-05
15:21:48
回覆 (43): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Hv you got this already?  
------------------------------------  
 
will see if it will arrive by this weekend.
daiwok
12-03-05
14:07:05
回覆 (42): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
 
 
to make matters more interesting, I have ordered one of these on recommendation from a German friend  
______________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Hv you got this already?  
 
 
cpsjj
12-03-05
13:23:37
回覆 (41): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
to make matters more interesting, I have ordered one of these on recommendation from a German friend
http://www.akustyk.com/stereo_selector.html
daiwok
12-03-05
12:51:11
回覆 (40): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
>Both can be arranged, depends on how much time we have. <  
 
We can have from 9am to 4pm and in between, I can also entertain you with your other favourite past time at my humble place. 8^)
daiwok
12-03-05
12:21:08
回覆 (39): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
 
 
can you also bring over your other MFA so I can compare the 2  
bringing his 強國 Doge 8 pre-amp  
______________________________________________________  
 
Both can be arranged, depends on how much time we have.  
 
 
 
cpsjj
12-03-05
11:26:12
回覆 (38): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
can you also bring over your other MFA so I can compare the 2 ?  
_____  
 
I'd rather Lord CP brining his 強國 Doge 8 pre-amp. If you are game, I have a MFA Classic with Silver trans sitting idle for quite some time.  
icefox
12-03-05
00:15:10
回覆 (37): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Lord CP,  
 
can you also bring over your other MFA so I can compare the 2 ?
daiwok
12-03-04
21:35:08
回覆 (36): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Please use:  
 
http://www.mfaudio.co.uk/manuals/baby_ref_manual_feb12.pdf  
 
Not  
 
http://www.mfaudio.co.uk/manuals/baby_ref_manual_feb12.pdf.  
 
for downloading manual  
dkyyu
12-03-04
12:57:28
回覆 (35): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Daiwok,  
 
Will call you again to fix a listening session at your place. I guess Thur after 6:00pm. Will it be OK to you?
dkyyu
12-03-04
12:55:54
回覆 (37): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
CP,  
I'll return to work on next Sat. May be Daiwok is kind enough to deliver tthe BBR to you, if not I'll pick it up after work and deliver to TKO on Sat. I hope you won't be disappointed in your second audition though only given with 100 hr prior burn-in period. I am sure the BRR has more room to improve after 2-300 hr burn-in.  
 
I hope Icefox won't mind after you as the BBR would sound better with more burn-in thrs.  
 
I think I am sick and will join Richard buying it up at end of the day.
dkyyu
12-03-04
12:54:06
回覆 (36): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Hi, Daiwok,  
 
I am glad after full and non-stop 100 hr run-in, this passive unit did not fail your expectation. I did a quick listening last night and it even sounded cleaner when I connected the grounding of BBR's input plug to an Sweden made Entreq Minimus (a passive box supposing to provide a cleaner earth piont for signal.) Please see the recent local audio magazine for their adv.  
 
Please find below for the manual from UK, I not not certain yet and it says 6db gain installed when using volume control. Please ascertain.  
 
Please spend more time at home this week to explore more because CP and Icefox are already firing up their gear after hearing your positive comment on this BBR.  
__________________________________________________________________  
Just for your information, I have added downloadable Owners Manuals to each product page on our website.  
 
The Baby Reference one is here: http://www.mfaudio.co.uk/manuals/baby_ref_manual_feb12.pdf.  
___________________________________________________  
 
I think I owe our another David Wong and mda a drink as they only heard a medium rare cooked BBR at my place last time. With positive comments from two David or may be later from CP, icefox etc, me and Richard (he will buy 2 units I think) will most likely commiting on this BBR with remote control + 2 xlr outputs. Anyone joining groupon buying is welcome and please let me know.  
 
Dennis
dkyyu
12-03-04
12:47:35
回覆 (36): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
next saturday morning before Yam Cha ?
daiwok
12-03-04
12:38:09
回覆 (35): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
 
 
When?  
 
cpsjj
12-03-04
11:35:06
回覆 (34): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Big thanks to Dennis for bring this BBR to me this morning, I almost forgot about meeting up @@  
 
Big thanks to Richard for burning this BBR in for us ...... ok fist impression - Its good !!! in fact very good !!! I have heard a few passive in my past and most are well, put it plainly - CRAP !! this one is as good as some of the very best pre-amps around. I don't find anything missing except a PHONO stage - ^__*  
 
The beauty of this BBR is no noise of course, but it also tells me that the other MFA (Reference) I have (from the Evil Kong) is also very quiet. I have the volume almost at MAX at my place, just one step from MAX, but some music I have to MAX OUT !  
 
Its not thin sounding, still tad bright, but not much and I think this will go away with more burning in. Its pretty dynamic, very balanced from top to bottom and the linearity is pretty impressive. The bass and treble region is very detailed.  
 
Dennis, I think it is worth it for you to come and hear it in my system, it will also be your first time to hear my system after all these years 8^) !! Lets do it before I have to hand it back.
daiwok
12-03-04
11:29:48
回覆 (33): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
According to our external reviewed, Richard Lau, this BBR has turned into a "true beauty" after his non stop 100 hr burn-in last week.  
 
Must hear.  
dkyyu
12-03-02
18:16:33
回覆 (32): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
I'm back !
daiwok
12-03-02
17:51:46
回覆 (31): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Icefox,  
 
Any advice?
dkyyu
12-02-22
11:00:03
回覆 (31): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Icefox,  
 
Any advice?
dkyyu
12-02-22
11:00:01
回覆 (30): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
E-chai,  
 
You are next on the list. Please advise your pick up date. I can deliver to you on this or next Saturday yumcha
dkyyu
12-02-14
09:47:59
回覆 (29): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
By the way, I won't take any advantage if buying. Should I decide to move on to the BBR, I'll join the party of group buying (if possible) with other 1pekingroad or review33 members who have same interest.  
 
Well, too soon to decide today, let's wait for more review.
dkyyu
12-02-07
10:26:12
回覆 (28): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Ha ha, dear Icefox,  
 
I can decide for myself even just hearing comment from you, cp, daiwok and other in-house reviewers. Please tell me the most appropriate start day for your audition, such that I can arrange timely delivery to you.  
 
One more, any gentlemen selling his MFA MK2? I'd received mails from some reviewer33 members now looking for the MK2.
dkyyu
12-02-07
10:23:03
回覆 (27): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
After 22/3 Return to UK  
____  
 
You are not going to try? Or you will receive the Ref right away? ^__^
icefox
12-02-07
00:43:12
回覆 (26): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Some revision on Home Trial Reservation List  
 
1. 18/12 - 24/12 David Wong  
2. 24/12 - 5/1 Richard Lau  
3. 5/1 - 20/1 CP  
4. 3/2 - 17/2 Richard Lau  
5. late Feb Icefox  
6. March Daiwok  
7. 10/3 - 21/3 CP  
 
After 22/3 Return to UK  
dkyyu
12-02-05
14:37:06
回覆 (35): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Hello mda,  
 
No need to take this too serious or too far. Afterall, we are talking about funs and electronics. I have too many hobbies in my life and certainly prime rib ranks higher than audio hardware per my satisfaction list.  
 
The BBR is priced lower than other big names and I am more interested in BBR for its smaller case. I'll take whatever available in the market if improvement in sound.  
 
If you checked Feikeung's posting in panel forum, he seems to me he is taking the right path by paying more serious attention in other game than buying new audio toys today. Easy, mate.  
dkyyu
12-01-21
15:03:29
回覆 (34): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Dennis,  
 
No Need to waste time because you will not get the exact answer from Harry.  
 
As said, go and borrow or loan or steal or beg or knee the owner of the MFA Ref and everyone could get the clear answer.
mda
12-01-20
21:50:21
回覆 (33): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Dear CP and King,  
 
You two know much better than I do in the world of audio design.  
 
From Mk2, I think MFA has found the right direction venturing into the exsotic high-end boundary usually dominated by the very few. I made a brief comparison amongst 3 generations together with mda, David Wong (not daiwok) and a few review33 members, in my opinion, both the Mk2 and Baby reference represent a quantum leap in TVC design which are far better than Mk1 in all aspects.  
 
The Mk2 is damn good (after fixing the grounding and some connection problem) I can surely live with it. About Baby reference, I'll need a serious listening before deciding the upgrade. Can't you see I am putting my name last on the list, I guess Daiwok is thinking the same way
dkyyu
12-01-20
21:03:16
回覆 (32): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Thank you for posting Harry's message. I think I need drwkng's talent to interpret what exactly he has to say.  
---------  
that is qutie simple. what he is trying to say is that they have no idea what they are doing. so they just load the thing with components perceived by the audiophile community as cost no object. that makes the reference. as it turns out, those components are at times worse than those used in the baby. but then you have to ask the question, do they know what they are doing with the TVC itself^-^  
may be it will turn out that a much simpler design will have a better performance than the complicated one. so teh safe bet is to wait a while for baby junior.  
 
 
 
My major concern on the BBR is why the vol control on the Reference cannot be used on the BBR. During my testing, I could never get to the right loudness on the BBR, neither could I on the Mk II.  
------  
with the number of steps, you can do a little maths and know that it is quite impossible.
drwkng
12-01-20
17:15:10
回覆 (31): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
 
 
Dennis,  
 
Thank you for posting Harry's message. I think I need drwkng's talent to interpret what exactly he has to say.  
 
Does it mean the Reference is loaded with features which are basically useless to the majority; and that without these features the Baby can actually sound better than the Reference?  
 
My major concern on the BBR is why the vol control on the Reference cannot be used on the BBR. During my testing, I could never get to the right loudness on the BBR, neither could I on the Mk II. But the ARC Ref 3 must have offered resolution finer than 0.5dB, and the Ref 3 and the BBR are priced more or less on the same level brand new.  
 
 
cpsjj
12-01-20
17:06:37
回覆 (30): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
Dear all  
 
I asked and here attached the response from MFA's Harry addressed to my personal enquiry on their Reference series product.  
 
_______________________________________________  
 
Hello Dennis,  
 
Thank you for your message. Great to see this thread with so many thoughts on it!  
 
I remember the guy who wrote the review on the Baby vs. the full Reference, he was in the UK and tried them both against his pre and others.  
 
His evaluation is helpful, since it's an articulate description of the differences from an impartial source.  
 
The Reference transformer (the TX102mkIV) came about because in the five years since the original TX102 was designed, we'd come across better ways to do things. Only a fool would believe they know everything there is to know, so we were happy to experiment with improvements.  
 
We realised it was possible to make an even better attenuation transformer that the original TX102, but that it would require substantial design and the eventual manufacture would involve considerable labour, to keep tolerances and quality to the absolute maximum.  
 
In order to make this a commercially viable product we wanted to back up the sonic improvements with additional features and improved casework. The result is our Reference preamplifier. This is our flagship product and, while it is an often over used phrase we believe it is a true, "cost no object" product. We looked at every aspect of the design and every component and at no stage allowed ourselves to be bound by the usual constraints of manufacturing; time and cost.  
 
Over time, we had customers who expressed an interest in the Reference, but who did not want all the features and facilities and, more to the point, did not wish to pay for things they felt they didn't need.  
 
We came up with the Baby Reference for these customers. Those who demand absolutely uncompromised audio performance, but do not need the additional features of the full model. The price of the Baby Reference is accounted for entirely by the fact that it includes our very best possible transformers. The money is all invested in the audio performance.  
 
We designed the Baby Reference to offer the same audio performance as the full model. This is because it uses the same transformer design, construction,execution and is manufactured to the same tolerances.  
 
However, as the review posted mentions, we have found that in some cases the Baby Reference seems to performs marginally better than the full model, if indeed there are any differences. I must stress that these differences are marginal at most. Quite why this would be is hard to say, perhaps the ELMA switch instead of the Shallco? Perhaps the absence of the +6dB option which requires some different primary switching? It's certainly very hard to say.  
 
It would be interesting to get your thoughts, if you are able to compare at Dominic's place with his Reference?  
 
Thank you for the invitation to comment directly on the forum, but there's a concern about appearing too unbiased when posting, since clearly we are biased! This is why I think the review posted by Icefox is most helpful. because it is impartial.  
 
I hope this helps, as ever our sincere thanks to you.  
 
Many thanks and very best regards  
 
Harry  
 
dkyyu
12-01-19
23:05:13
回覆 (29): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
The 2 TVCs might be more honest as I could clearly hear the distortions at loud passages as the Mytek flashed violently in red. However the active Ref 3 was able to round off all the rough edges of the distortions and was much more listenable at these passages.  
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this does not make much sense. the flashing from mytek shouldn't indicate distortion but instead large signal. you could never get mytek into distortion. so what happens is that your TVC is not capable to handle the large signal from the mytek whereas your Ref3 has no such problem. so it is the Ref3 beiing honest not your TVCs.
drwkng
12-01-19
09:48:25
回覆 (28): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
The audition carried out at Dennis' place after Christmas (for half a day) was to identify the character of Mk1, 2 and BBR, a grand view with a bit of fun with the 2 new friends in order to demostrate the nature of TVC and not a critical listening session to assist the potential buyer.
mda
12-01-19
09:22:54
回覆 (27): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
The test was done with CEC TL-0 + Mytek Stereo96 DAC as source, driving a pair of Mark Levinson 33H, comparing the BBR with the MFA Mk II and ARC Reference 3.  
_____  
 
Good Lord, what is the loudspeaker that we are talking about here? ESL 57? @@  
 
TL-0.......... OMG, that's nice!
icefox
12-01-19
00:48:14
回覆 (26): Music First Audio Baby Reference (BBR)
 
 
I don't know how you guys did the audition, bluffing favourable comments over the Classic and the Mk II; for me I cannot bear with the BBR at its current state for more than 5 minutes. The phenomenon is very similar to the Classic when I brought it home brand new. The sound texture is so rough that the TVC is just not listenable before proper run in.  
 
The test was done with CEC TL-0 + Mytek Stereo96 DAC as source, driving a pair of Mark Levinson 33H, comparing the BBR with the MFA Mk II and ARC Reference 3. The BBR came out to be the poorest of the 3. There are something positive on the basic attributes of the sound though which make me wanting for a retry after the BBR will have run in. The BBR has tighter and deeper bass than both the Mk II and the Ref 3. It is also more analytical and transparent, bringing out more details but without a body. By comparison, the Ref 3 always seems to be veiled. The sound stage of the BBR and the Mk II is very similar, deep but far away from the listener, unlike the Ref 3 which is able to envelop the listener into the ambience. The 2 TVCs might be more honest as I could clearly hear the distortions at loud passages as the Mytek flashed violently in red. However the active Ref 3 was able to round off all the rough edges of the distortions and was much more listenable at these passages.  
 
All in all, the Mk II is the winner of the 3, especially for simple music. For more complicated music, the Ref 3 sounded much grander but blurred by comparison. With the bitter experience of the Classic which took me about 2 months to run in and with the few positive attributes of the BBR, I would certainly want to have a second look.  
 
Photobucket  
 
a href="http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/cpsjj/?action=view&current=R0011885.jpg" target="_blank">Photobucket  
 
Photobucket  
 
Photobucket  
 
cpsjj
12-01-19
00:43:48
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