Losers' corner for the semi-deaf |
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回覆 (222): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
 
Never mind Ben. The proof of alignment is in the listening and it's always the end result that matters most. Forget about precise alignment and try the following:-  
 
If you hear obvious distortion tracking the inner most grooves, push the cartridge slightly forward to the tip of the arm, probably by 0.5 to 1 mm. If you can't move the cartridge because the fixing screw goes through a tiny hole in stead of a slot, then all you can do is to twist the cartridge for slightly less offset relative to the arm tube. That would probably have your problem resolved.  
 
 
limage
10-06-30
16:13:57
回覆 (221): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
we do not know if it were better aligned, would it produce significantly better sound  
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Oh yes it does. The whole thing is a compromise and yet good compromise is always better than a bad one.  
 
limage
10-06-30
16:11:24
回覆 (220): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Actually, I have yet to see any Colibri with the motor aligned perfectly with the shell; they are always a bit off!  
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if you can see it, we can't be talking about 100 microns. of course we do not know if it were better aligned, would it produce significantly better sound.
drwkng
10-06-30
16:06:51
回覆 (220): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>For some reasons, after my own setting up, the off set angle of the cart is not same as that of the headshell. <  
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Ben,  
 
What protractor/alignment curve are you using for the alignment? There is a possibility that the Rega is designed with a different alignment curve in mind, compared to the protractor you are using.  
 
Of course, if you are using Rega's own proctractor, then there maybe an error in the spindle (turntable) to pivot (tonearm) distance!  
 
thekong
10-06-30
15:35:13
回覆 (219): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>are we a bit paranoid about a mere 100 microns off centre? do you think the stylus can be mounted to that accuracy?<  
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Just want to put in my 2 cents! Dr King is probably right in pointing out that the stylus/cantilever/shell alignment is really not that accurate in general. While a relatively big company like Denon may do a better job, the alignment is just awful with the VDH Colibri. Actually, I have yet to see any Colibri with the motor aligned perfectly with the shell; they are always a bit off! While you can fix the problem by twisting the shell a bit during installation, it really doesn’t help you confident on the quality of the cartridge.  
 
Being said that, it is amazing that such a cartridge, with the misaligned stylus/cantilever/shell and all, could reproduce music better than the digital means, at least to my ears. Of course, it is already mind-blowing that the LP playback, basically by dragging a rock through modulated grooves, could produce even decent sound, let alone high fidelity!  
 
The LP system can also be very sensitive to adjustments. As I have said before, the Colibri’s sounds can change from lively to dull within a change of 0.05g in VTF. So, my take is that while we can’t do a thing about the stylus/cantilever alignment, as it is set in factory, we should do our best in aligning the other areas as far as possible.  
 
 
thekong
10-06-30
15:29:59
回覆 (218): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Ooops typo:  
 
Wow... Tolerance is something too much for me to worry about for now.  
 
I am still struggling with how to set the cart on the rega arm properly. For some reasons, after my own setting up, the off set angle of the cart is not same as that of the headshell. My setup has the cart slanted in more. I would imagine a properly setup tonearm and cart should have the cart parallel to the headshell and looks neat.  
 
Problem might be due to the arm not installed accurately.... Shoot, the last track is a bit distorted too...  
 
Now "enjoying" the pain of vinyl....  
BenYC
10-06-30
15:00:59
回覆 (217): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Wow... Tolerance is something too much for me to worry about for now.  
 
I am still struggling with how to set the cart on the rega arm properly. For some reasons, after my own setting up, the off set angle of the cart is not same as that of the armhole. Mine setup has the cart slanted in more.  
 
Problem might be due to the arm not installed accurately.... Shoot, the last track is a bit distorted too...  
 
Now "enjoying" the pain of vinyl....  
 
BenYC
10-06-30
14:57:00
回覆 (216): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
we are just hogging up other people's cyberspace here ^__*  
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o.k. i keep my mouth shut then my dear Merlin!
drwkng
10-06-30
11:24:50
回覆 (215): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
I think we should start our own thread ......... we are just hogging up other people's cyberspace here ^__*  
 
Nothing wrong with old stuff, just look at those 27D tubes you got in your pre-amp ! @[email protected]
daiwok
10-06-30
11:08:15
回覆 (214): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
then you are good for some test set up. and get out of the medieval age of alchemy and embrace the new world!
drwkng
10-06-30
10:57:14
回覆 (213): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
I have that test LP Good Doctor !! ^__^
daiwok
10-06-30
10:47:27
回覆 (212): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
I meant the cartridge to the tonearm, but it seems you like to  
discriminate the old my dear Good Doctor ?  
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the thing is it starts with the stylus structure first. if you don't get the accuracy there, it is not much point to claim any accuracy afterwards. and by the way, i don't think you have the equipment to measure any misalignment at that level^-^ No?  
 
i just located a test LP which we talked about with Dr F*.. one can use this one  
http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=detail&title_id=35532  
 
you can hook up the test equipment to see the difference in whatever. unfortunately it only has 100hz, 1Khz and 10Khz. it wont satisfy Dr. Ng requirement.
drwkng
10-06-30
10:34:57
回覆 (211): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
shit! i need to get into this business. it is really easy money.  
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That's right, I look for easy money !! Everything always looks easy form the other side of the fence after the hard work has ben done ^__*  
 
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Accuracy of mounting depends who is mounting ^__*  
 
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I meant the cartridge to the tonearm, but it seems you like to  
discriminate the old my dear Good Doctor ?
daiwok
10-06-30
10:15:26
回覆 (211): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
shit! i need to get into this business. it is really easy money.  
.............................................  
 
That's right, I look for easy money !! Everything always looks easy form the other side of the fence after the hard work has ben done ^__*  
 
................................  
 
Accuracy of mounting depends who is mounting ^__*  
 
................................  
 
I meant the cartridge to the tonearm, but it seems you like to  
discriminate the old my dear Good Doctor ?
daiwok
10-06-30
10:15:26
回覆 (211): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
shit! i need to get into this business. it is really easy money.  
.............................................  
 
That's right, I look for easy money !! Everything always looks easy form the other side of the fence after the hard work has ben done ^__*  
 
................................  
 
Accuracy of mounting depends who is mounting ^__*  
 
................................  
 
I meant the cartridge to the tonearm, but it seems you like to  
discriminate the old my dear Good Doctor ?
daiwok
10-06-30
10:15:22
回覆 (210): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
not paranoia my Good Doctor - the stylus is that sensitive.  
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that is wishful thinking.  
 
The 103R sells for HKD 2450, but its much more than that what I have achieved, have a read below as this is a common generator in some high end carts I have mentioned.  
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shit! i need to get into this business. it is really easy money.  
 
Accuracy of mounting depends who is mounting ^__*  
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not your old gentleman in UK for sure. with a structure using glue and all that, i doubt you will get repeatability anywhere near 100micron.
drwkng
10-06-30
09:57:54
回覆 (209): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
even with grub screws, the hole on the side is ugly to my eyes ^__^
daiwok
10-06-30
00:49:02
回覆 (208): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
not paranoia my Good Doctor - the stylus is that sensitive.  
 
The 103R sells for HKD 2450, but its much more than that what I have achieved, have a read below as this is a common generator in some high end carts I have mentioned.  
 
Accuracy of mounting depends who is mounting ^__*
daiwok
10-06-30
00:48:24
回覆 (207): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Even if balanced, you will see the screw if you have a linear arm mounted like the way I mount my arms.  
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not if they are grub screws.
drwkng
10-06-30
00:31:41
回覆 (207): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
If the screws are placed on one side and not the other, then cartridge will be imbalanced. Even if balanced, you will see the screw if you have a linear arm mounted like the way I mount my arms.  
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are we a bit paranoid about a mere 100 microns off centre? do you think the stylus can be mounted to that accuracy? by the way, how much is a 103?
drwkng
10-06-30
00:30:23
回覆 (206): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
If the screws are placed on one side and not the other, then cartridge will be imbalanced. Even if balanced, you will see the screw if you have a linear arm mounted like the way I mount my arms.
daiwok
10-06-30
00:25:06
回覆 (205): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
i meant the screws on the side facing the centre of the platter not inside the shell.
drwkng
10-06-30
00:08:49
回覆 (204): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Not necessarily as coupling of the flat generator area to the aluminum body mass is essential, but appreciate the suggestion. I am not sure if I can incorporate internal grub screw .... you might have to teach me a few tricks Good Doctor ^__^  
 
There is also a hidden agenda underneath all this on how it all works as well ^__* it allows interchangable swapping with wooden bodies made by a dear friend of mine in Germany ^__* that also follows the same innards
daiwok
10-06-29
23:33:52
回覆 (203): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
if you use grub screws and put them on the inside, it should be hardly visible. using the screws will greatly reduce the manufacturing requirement and yet offer better fitting all in one go.
drwkng
10-06-29
23:23:36
回覆 (202): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
I did consider having screw tightening from the side on the current production, but the aesthetic looks was a no no to me :-(  
 
Don't worry the fit is quite tight !  
 
one of the reasons I wanted to use screws was because I was considering casting a new epoxy body to reinforce the bridge but still allow myself to take the main generator in and out without permanently bonding everything together.
daiwok
10-06-29
23:18:05
回覆 (201): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
how about a couple of plastic screws? that is easy and simple enough. and more secure to be sure and definitely reversible!
drwkng
10-06-29
23:13:11
回覆 (200): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Appreciate your concerns Good Doctor, I will show you the real thing and demo it how it all comes together ^__^  
 
You can also have a sneaky peak under the skirt as well. The demo will not be as interesting as the Jelly fish and having the right tightness, as there is more give in plastic, but I am sure you will have a much better understanding ^__^  
 
Now you have to be careful what you do to the generator and there are some very fine wires on the side which are easily broken in the wrong hands or under the wrong process. The plastic area of my concern does not measure "10 microns" just that I need my Aluminum slot to be within 10 Microns tolerance to create the press fit. You are right the tolerance on the plastic is not as high, so I need to settle for a fitting mechanism to cater for the plastic. I have found some have a tighter fit than others, but so far no issues ^__*  
 
daiwok
10-06-29
23:06:32
回覆 (199): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
i definitley don't think the plastic is anywhere near 10 micron accuracy. this kind of press fit is kind of iff. don't you think? i'm afraid i prefer more secured fitting. how about heating that up to say by 100c and heat shrink the generator into it^-^
drwkng
10-06-29
22:55:39
回覆 (199): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
And here it is nicely slotted in place ^__*
daiwok
10-06-29
22:40:30
回覆 (198): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
This is all that is left, the bottom plate of the main cartridge is the critical dimension I require to ensure a tight test fit, note you can argue that the plastic is not within 10 microns - can is true but its not far off " do not I said press fit" this means the plastic is squeezed into an area where my groove designed for press fit is within 10 microns. Given the aluminum is harder than the plastic the plastic slight give allows this to form a nice snug fit ^__^
daiwok
10-06-29
22:39:39
回覆 (197): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
you have not answered my question about the accuracy of the original generator. if it is no better than 10 microns, your spec is not meaningful.  
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Sorry Good Doctor, but you were referring to the original Denon Body which I have answered, but worries let me try and address all your issues for you since you are soooooo interested ^__*  
 
The Denon body is a plastic shell, accuracy is within 10 microns and I have have many of these bodies. This Body has no relevance as you will not need it as once stripped it goes into the bin - as shown on the left of the photo ( you can see the areas where glue has been applied  
 
The remaining main part is the generator which is housed by various areas of plastic, gluing etc as show in the right of the photo  
 
daiwok
10-06-29
22:36:33
回覆 (196): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
you have not answered my question about the accuracy of the original generator. if it is no better than 10 microns, your spec is not meaningful.
drwkng
10-06-29
22:29:05
回覆 (195): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
what is the original body? a cnc machined shell?  
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in terms of precision injection molding 5 micron accuracy is possible and that is the best my factory can achieve for what it is worth. However the Denon plastic body is glued together with the generator - like I said my CNC body is different, the generator slides into place and is a press fit. Yes are other means of making it fit or you could glue or epoxy, but that process is irreversible and would not be able to change clothes later ^__*
daiwok
10-06-29
22:14:09
回覆 (194): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
on top of that, is the denon body itself accurate 10 micron?
drwkng
10-06-29
22:10:39
回覆 (193): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
10 micron accuracy is crucial in my body as the generator is a press fit. So when you strip the Denon 103R and you push the naked body into place there are some very critical dimensions to ensure everything just pops in and if you want out ...... accuracy is everything in certain areas, but not all !  
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what is the original body? a cnc machined shell?
drwkng
10-06-29
22:09:23
回覆 (192): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
i'm afraid i can't see any rational reason for a 10 micron accuracy on anything audio. if it does require one, it show the failure of the design^-^  
of course, does it feel better? i'm sure it does but that's about it.  
 
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Good Doctor,  
 
10 micron accuracy is crucial in my body as the generator is a press fit. So when you strip the Denon 103R and you push the naked body into place there are some very critical dimensions to ensure everything just pops in and if you want out ...... accuracy is everything in certain areas, but not all !
daiwok
10-06-29
22:05:53
回覆 (191): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
I need accuracy to 10 microns in certain areas. Kong was first to see the difference on what 10 microns can do with my bodies and if it is out then it goes into the rubbish bin and its not fit for use :-(  
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i'm afraid i can't see any rational reason for a 10 micron accuracy on anything audio. if it does require one, it show the failure of the design^-^  
of course, does it feel better? i'm sure it does but that's about it.
drwkng
10-06-29
21:39:56
回覆 (191): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
The problem with the stock 103 is that it has low compliance (hard spring) and low body weight (light car), so it is beneficial to have either the body weight incresed, or use a tonearm with high effective mass!  
 
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Well I have s solution for both of these issues, hopefully it will be ready this week ^__^
daiwok
10-06-29
21:27:50
回覆 (190): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
i don't think your engineer know how set up my little machine. this is what i have http://www.microproto.com/  
 
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I think we are use to much more complicated 5 to 6 axis machines which are CNC centers. Nevertheless, I don't think it is complicated to setup - however I checked the website and unfortunately my tolerances are higher than what is on offer. I need accuracy to 10 microns in certain areas. Kong was first to see the difference on what 10 microns can do with my bodies and if it is out then it goes into the rubbish bin and its not fit for use :-(
daiwok
10-06-29
21:26:35
回覆 (189): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>I would imagine, the heavier the cart is, the more dynamic will be the playback…<  
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Actually, that is not true in my experience, as I have uses very light cartridges (6g for the Colibri, 8-9g for the A90) which have exceptional dynamics.  
 
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Ooops, sorry for not being clear. I was making a general statement with all factors being equal. Some motors are stronger and some carts are superior. :-)  
 
Again, I am still very unfamilar with this whole vinyl thing.... I am just trying to see it in a more simplified way before I get myself too confused, if I have not yet....  
 
:-)
BenYC
10-06-29
17:55:58
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