Losers' corner for the semi-deaf |
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回覆 (188): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>I would imagine, the heavier the cart is, the more dynamic will be the playback…<  
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Actually, that is not true in my experience, as I have uses very light cartridges (6g for the Colibri, 8-9g for the A90) which have exceptional dynamics.  
 
The effective mass need to match with the compliance for the cartridge to track optimally. Just think of it as the spring suspension of a car; if you use very hard springs on a light car, you will have a very bumpy ride. On the other hand, if you use soft springs on a heavy car, it will bottom out often!  
 
The problem with the stock 103 is that it has low compliance (hard spring) and low body weight (light car), so it is beneficial to have either the body weight incresed, or use a tonearm with high effective mass!  
 
 
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
16:40:25
回覆 (187): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Thanks thekong for the tip,  
 
My knowledge on this cart tonearm thing is very limited.  
 
I would imagine, the heavier the cart is, the more dynamic will be the playback as more energy will to passed on to move the cantilever instead of pushing the whole cart up and down. Yet, the heavier is the cart, the more load we need to put on the other end of the tonearm. Both sides add up and add more weight to the bearing of the tonearm that do the turning. Thus, in a way, there is a compromise here. More movement at the generator or less stress at the tracking. Thus, it seems that it is all very tonearm depending.  
 
For a mid mass tonearm, better stick to mid mass stuff.  
 
Yet, I will try blutack to add weight. Cheap tweak and experimenting. No harm and should be fun.  
 
BenYC
10-06-29
16:15:27
回覆 (186): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
If you need help to setup, more than happy to come over with my engineers ^__^  
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i don't think your engineer know how set up my little machine. this is what i have http://www.microproto.com/
drwkng
10-06-29
15:30:33
回覆 (186): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Wait gentlemen, may I know what CNC is, apart from Can Not Cancel ?  
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it stands for computer numerical control. it depends on the equipment being controlled. i have a milling machine is that CNC enabled. so i just have to program the machine to perform the milling operation. the machine will do it by itself.
drwkng
10-06-29
15:28:40
回覆 (185): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
If you need help to setup, more than happy to come over with my engineers ^__^
daiwok
10-06-29
15:22:39
回覆 (185): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
Wait gentlemen, may I know what CNC is, apart from Can Not Cancel ?  
 
 
>0<  
 
limage
10-06-29
15:21:56
回覆 (184): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Is it big enough for a 16" platter ? :-)  
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you need a cnc latthe i'm afraid which i don't have. i only have a humble cnc milling machine which is more than adequate to do your little head shell.
drwkng
10-06-29
15:13:42
回覆 (183): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>it is large enough and accurate enough to do those little things ^-^<  
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Is it big enough for a 16" platter ? :-)  
 
thekong
10-06-29
15:10:43
回覆 (182): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
if i ever get my cnc up, i can machine some for you to play with.  
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Try the green button ^__* If you are up for it, I have some exotic woods here as well. Of course I am now looking at Agate and Coral stone but require a totally different drill pieces.  
daiwok
10-06-29
15:09:40
回覆 (182): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
You have a CNC machine...wow! I  
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it is large enough and accurate enough to do those little things ^-^
drwkng
10-06-29
15:06:46
回覆 (181): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>if i ever get my cnc up, i can machine some for you to play with.<  
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Dr King,  
 
You have a CNC machine...wow! It may save diawok a lot of work when prototyping. You know how hard it is to find China workshops to do that in small quantity!  
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
15:01:50
回覆 (180): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>I am actually debating if should get a heavier weight for my rega tone arm. Yet, I also wonder if I use a heavier than should be weight, will the stress on the bearing be much more and hinder tracking. <  
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Ben,  
 
I don’t think the rather small increase in weight would stress the bearing!  
 
As I understand, the theory is that the arm’s effective mass would be higher if you use a light counterweight further to the back, than a heavy counterweight closer to the pivot. While the lower effective mass arrangement usually works well with most modern arm/cartridge combinations, it may actually be beneficial to have a higher effective mass for the Denon, especially with a medium mass arm like the Rega.  
 
I think you can experiment blutacking some coins/weight to your existing counterweight (of course adjust the VTF accordingly) to see if you like the result. If you like it and decide to get a heavy counterweight, I would recommend getting one of those drop weight (like the Michell Tecnoweight or Expressimo Audio Heavy-Weight ). I have had very positive experience with similar diy counterweight for the FR64S.  
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
14:57:12
回覆 (179): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
if i ever get my cnc up, i can machine some for you to play with.
drwkng
10-06-29
14:35:50
回覆 (178): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
>do you find alum having a tendency to ring?<  
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Dr. King  
 
I have yet to have an alum body Denon in my system, but based on my short audition (about 4-5 hours total) in diawok’s system, I didn’t hear any problem related to ringing. Of course, if there really is any negative impact, it is possible that it would only show up after extensive listening. I can’t wait to have my Denon back from retip to compare to the Colibri and A90!  
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
14:25:24
回覆 (177): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
not so sure. you know the top of my amp is 5mm thick. it still rings. so the structure dictates a lot as well.  
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Shape and form also dictates ^__* 5mm is still a slender piece when you look at the effective length where the mechanical nodes are.
daiwok
10-06-29
14:19:49
回覆 (176): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
not so sure. you know the top of my amp is 5mm thick. it still rings. so the structure dictates a lot as well. if you use something like composite, you can have thicker structure and i'm not sure the damping capability is less than alum though. but i suppose it can get too big since it is only 1/2 of alum in density.  
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Its all relative .....depends on the amount of force / vibration you apply. However, try this trick - for example if you take a piece of glass and you tap it it will ring, now put two pieces of identical thickness and size together, now tap it, you get cancellation with a thud sound.  
 
With regards to cartridge bodies, besides material I have tried a number of different weights, each giving a different sonic sound, it al boils down to what you think is best.
daiwok
10-06-29
14:16:19
回覆 (175): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Aluminum can ring, but if you have a sufficient amount it can counter act these issues,  
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not so sure. you know the top of my amp is 5mm thick. it still rings. so the structure dictates a lot as well. if you use something like composite, you can have thicker structure and i'm not sure the damping capability is less than alum though. but i suppose it can get too big since it is only 1/2 of alum in density.
drwkng
10-06-29
14:07:03
回覆 (175): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Is vinyl setup really that sensitive?  
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Should we answer this question ^__^ ?
daiwok
10-06-29
12:47:24
回覆 (174): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
do you find alum having a tendency to ring? would it better to use some other non-metal material like say delrin?  
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Good Doctor, I did consider use PEEK / PEK material which is better than Delrin, but damping of vibration is also down to mass. Plastic damping properties are not as efficient, so you will need a huge mass to equal what aluminum can do. Aluminum can ring, but if you have a sufficient amount it can counter act these issues, you will find all high cart manufactures use Aluminum, cheap and easy to CNC and gives a nice weight ratio for compliance issues, you can say its a compromise ^__*  
 
I have some brass and copper bodies, much better damping characteristics compared to aluminum, but they are so heavy not all tonearms can handle this !
daiwok
10-06-29
12:46:26
回覆 (174): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
do you find alum having a tendency to ring? would it better to use some other non-metal material like say delrin?  
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Good Doctor, I did consider use PEEK / PEK material which is better than Delrin, but damping of vibration is also down to mass. Plastic damping properties are not as efficient, so you will need a huge mass to equal what aluminum can do. Aluminum can ring, but if you have a sufficient amount it can counter act these issues, you will find all high cart manufactures use Aluminum, cheap and easy to CNC and gives a nice weight ratio for compliance issues, you can say its a compromise ^__*  
 
I have some brass and copper bodies, much better damping characteristics compared to aluminum, but they are so heavy not all tonearms can handle this !
daiwok
10-06-29
12:46:24
回覆 (173): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Just for interest - the modification of the Denon 103 started in the 80's by Jean Higara. He started making cast molds and wooden bodies back then. Another Frenchman who took it further is Jean LeCleac'h whom a big fan of his horn flare and crossover ideas, has a Denon 103 weighing 40g ! which is cast from metal alloy after creating a mold from the the stripped plastic body. What is fascinating about the 103, is the basic principles of any cartridge is the same and you can experiment with relatively little cost on a relatively cheap cartridge.  
 
Many different materials and many different bodies give a different overall sonic sound. Drilling holes does not do anything other than reduce mass. Mass is critical in the overall performance in balancing sonic reproduction and refinement. What the bodies give you is an increase in compliance and reduction of motor vibration cased by the stylus. This is reason why all cartridges have a compliance number so that you can match the right tonearm so that resonances are outside the audible range. If you ever take open a Denon cartridge you will fine that the 103R actually has a dampener at the front of the body while the 103 does not. There are many ways to manipulate the sound, it boils down to what you want to hear, tonal clarity ? harmonics ? dynamics ? the MIDAS BODY is a balance of these, but if you want to hear better tonal richness (IMHO colouration) then the Wooden bodies which my friend Uwe Brettsneider makes in Germany are perfect for this. My bodies and his are exactly the same internally so it allows you to plug and play with any naked Denon 103 or Denon 103R - even 103D which I have also tried.  
 
There are number of high end cartridge manufactures which also use the 103 generator / motor such as Bluenote / Artemis / Magic Diamond.  
 
A lot of time, testing, prototyping has been done to get to this stage where I am.  
 
Kong, I already have a nude version of the body - welcome to try, it is also plug and play ^__*  
 
This year I am looking at making my own Agate and Coral Stone bodies ^__^  
 
daiwok
10-06-29
12:40:53
回覆 (173): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
kong,  
 
do you find alum having a tendency to ring? would it better to use some other non-metal material like say delrin?
drwkng
10-06-29
12:39:17
回覆 (172): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
thekong,  
 
Thanks for the explanation.  
 
I am actually debating if should get a heavier weight for my rega tone arm. Yet, I also wonder if I use a heavier than should be weight, will the stress on the bearing be much more and hinder tracking.  
 
Is vinyl setup really that sensitive?  
 
Funny as it may sound. I am learning how to do the cart alignment and setting up now... yes, the basic, basic...and still bit puzzled.  
 
Cheers.  
 
BenYC
10-06-29
12:32:55
回覆 (171): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Ben,  
 
Depends on the tonearm used, the added weight should be beneficial as the 103R has a low compliance, and most of the modern tonearms (including your Rega) only have medium effective mass.  
 
thekong
10-06-29
12:22:04
回覆 (170): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Actually I used an aluminum plate (about 3g) and just glue the cart on to it. With that little piece of aluminum added, it is already much heavier than the original 103R and I need to push the rega weight all the way to the end already and still not enough strictly speaking.  
 
Thus, I think what weight needed can be very setup depending.  
 
BenYC
10-06-29
12:12:46
回覆 (169): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
Oh...so more work for diawok then :-)  
 
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
12:07:16
回覆 (168): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
alum is only about 1/3 of copper.
drwkng
10-06-29
12:05:43
回覆 (167): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
Yes, but this style of shell uses a lot less material than the full body ones, maybe only about 60%! What is the weight ratio between bronze/copper and aluminium?  
 
thekong
10-06-29
11:54:57
回覆 (166): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
I always like the 103 and its variations. The problem is I have a very long term affinity with Koetsu step up which cannot take the much higher impedance of the Denon.  
 
What are the options running the 103 ?  
 
limage
10-06-29
11:51:01
回覆 (166): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
but bronze/copper is much heavier than alum. need some reengineering.
drwkng
10-06-29
11:45:12
回覆 (165): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
diawok,  
 
I found this photo in your thread in Lencoheaven. Maybe you can consider making something like that to show off the nude look of the Denon. It probably can be made in bronze/copper, so it has a similar weight as the aluminium shell!  
 
 
 
thekong
10-06-29
11:20:07
回覆 (166): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
shouldn't it be masochist instead. second thought probably not. you are trying to torture us, aren't you?  
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Torturing part may be true but not over here. Wait until you audition my system and you will know what torturing means.
BenYC
10-06-29
11:18:38
回覆 (165): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
When it gets cold you can buy some new clothes for the Denon 103R ^__*  
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Wow... Daiwok, your 103R has a great wardrope. :-)
BenYC
10-06-29
11:14:32
回覆 (164): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Saddist part is probably true...  
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shouldn't it be masochist instead. second thought probably not. you are trying to torture us, aren't you?
drwkng
10-06-29
11:12:41
回覆 (164): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Ben YC  
 
When it gets cold you can buy some new clothes for the Denon 103R ^__*
daiwok
10-06-29
11:00:31
回覆 (163): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Daiwok and Kong,  
 
Yes, I like the 103R without clothes a lot. Just for the look, it worths the trouble. Sounding better is extra bonus.  
 
Kh,  
 
Yes, I am going after illusions indeed. Loser is probably more on me as a whole package instead of on how good I do in this hobby. I am sure if I were into knitting sweaters, I would be doing the same. Saddist part is probably true... guess it's time to go check out those whip and chains. Shoot, I should have known earlier.. afterall, those toys are much cheaper.... damn....  
 
 
 
BenYC
10-06-29
10:38:33
回覆 (162): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
BenYC  
 
Didn't you mention that hi-fi is just an illusion.  
For an illusion there is no loser, always the winner, unless you are a saddist.  
Glad now you appreciate that serious vinyl can be fun.
kh33
10-06-29
09:55:17
回覆 (161): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
 
I just love nude cartridges, they are sexy ;-)  
 
thekong
10-06-29
08:39:03
回覆 (160): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
A Denon 103R with no clothes on ^__^ this has to be X-rated !! @[email protected]
daiwok
10-06-29
00:11:03
回覆 (159): Losers' corner for the semi-deaf
Oops...Have been too long. Forgot how to post photo... how pathetic....  
 
Here it is again.
BenYC
10-06-28
23:05:23
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