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Panel Speaker Rendezvous 〈屏封同盟會〉
Since the Maggies, the Quad ESLs, the Apogees, the Podium, Audio Analysis, Kings, KLH, Martin Logan, Dayton Wright, Acoustat, Soundlab and the like all have more in common with each other than with the conventional box type of speakers, it may be a good idea to have a concerted playground to joining forces here for one common goal — in search of the ultimate in high fidelity.  
 
This thread is emphatically not centred around the worship of panel speakers because I believe whatever design a speaker may be, there are always the pros and cons speaker designers have to face, making thereby compromises inevitable. The speaker, as yet the weakest link along the audio chain, would certainly have weaknesses specific to its particular design. As long as the compromise is not poorly drawn to eclipse its virtues, it is likely to be a good speaker.  
 
In this respect, panel speakers do have their ground breaking virtues on areas like phase coherency, bass definition, startling clarity and refreshing naturalness. They have the breathtaking ability every now and then to project, right before your eyes, the real thing in real space with staggering realism. Those are the remarkable qualities that have kept me enthralled unabated for so many years. The price to pay is fairly low efficiencies that prey on power amps, along with an imposing size that makes proper placement almost a near impossibility. While panel speakers generally require substantial amount of power to make them sing, they are by no means capable of deafening disco sound levels without bottoming, and in the case of ESLs in particular, resulting in permanent damages to their Mylar diaphragms. Yet in terms of accuracy, there are few other designs that manage to come even close.  
 
This should make a perfect place to share experiences, to explore fine-tuning tweaks, or even to undertake major restorations, as well as to squeeze the last drop of juice from every pair of panels that graces our room.  
 
 
 
limage
13-10-14
00:11:45
Panel Speaker Rendezvous 〈屏封同盟會〉
 
 
重要啟事:  
 
為了避免伺服器過荷,我們得開啟新的一頁。舊的帖子將會存案,方便查閱。新的帖子請擲往第二頁,Mark II 改良版,謝謝!  
 
 
 
Attention:  
 
In order to avoid any possible overload to our server, we'll have to open a new page of this thread. Old posts will be archived for reference. All new posts please have them directed to Page Two of this same thread, i.e. Mark II, improved version. Thanks!  
 
 
limage
12-07-12
10:20:49
感谢李师傅!
感谢李师傅竟然画了草图!为人如斯,使小可感激不已,遇人之淑,幸莫大焉。。。
Sherblarck
12-07-11
23:16:25
finding the coupling spot
 
 
您的3.5目前距离侧墙和后墙分别是多少能告知晚辈么? ____________________________________________  
 
 
離側牆 204 mm,離后牆 2640 mm,相等於總長 百分之四十。  
 
 
limage
12-07-11
15:20:59
李师傅
 
 
Look at the ceiling angle right where the 3.5 sit. The room is a horn/speaker whichever the word you prefer :-)  
___________________________  
 
 
Thanks Dominic for your kind words. Honestly I had nothing like that in mind when I installed the false ceiling. It is there purely for decorative purpose. There are big water pipes running across the ceiling over the listening area. Using thin acoustic tiles to cover them up was the simplest and cheapest way I could find.  
 
These tiles measure 2 x 2 feet each and can be taken down easily in case the drain needs servicing. Initial listening sessions were in fact conducted before these tiles were installed. Believe it or not, they have very little effect upon the overall sound. Well, if you think they are crucial, it might well be another instance of "asshole hitting the right stick"!  
 
limage
12-07-11
14:51:06
李师傅
 
:-) allow my stupid comment but you can forget about it ...  
 
Master Lee's room is like a speaker itself. Look at the ceiling angle right where the 3.5 sit. The room is a horn/speaker whichever the word you prefer :-)  
 
Several concert hall I frequently visit includ San Francisco's Davies Hall and Los Angles's Dorothy Chanler and Los Angles's Hollywood Bowl, they all have design architecture to make the stage funnel and behaves like a speaker completely, giant speaker !  
 
Master Lee's room is the first one I had ever seen apply that into a home environment. The normal golden ratio is not applicable anymore !  
 
In my years of cheap experience, the shorter MG is much easier to deal with unless you are master lee :-)  
Cadiver
12-07-11
12:44:59
李师傅
您的3.5目前距离侧墙和后墙分别是多少能告知晚辈么?能有一间和您的听音室尺寸相对接近的房间真是幸莫大焉,也是该着我和MG有缘,直接拿来参照,真希望能省却我多番的折腾啊!哈!庆幸之余,兴奋难掩。。。
Sherblarck
12-07-11
12:32:59
先生如此称呼,真是折杀小可了!
 
相信不会罷!  
 
limage
12-07-10
09:59:52
先生如此称呼,真是折杀小可了!
那是我记错了哦。李师傅,我看到3.7的分频器相较于3.6、3.5好像缩水了,不知道声音会不会缩水哦
Sherblarck
12-07-09
19:54:47
先生如此称呼,真是折杀小可了!
另外李先生目前的MG屏风是3.5么?以前记得好像是3.6啊  
----------  
从来都是3.5R呀  
drwkng
12-07-09
17:04:03
finding the coupling spot
李先生的御用听音室真是美观至极!我的听音室的音箱后墙是落地玻璃窗,虽然有两层窗帘遮挡,但依然不能确定是否影响音效?
Sherblarck
12-07-09
17:01:13
先生如此称呼,真是折杀小可了!
小可的听音室的地板有点问题,系两间房打通,两边的地板高度不一致,所以需要重新搞一下,抬高10公分是必要的,不知能否能缓解一下高度和长度的倍数关系。另外李先生目前的MG屏风是3.5么?以前记得好像是3.6啊
Sherblarck
12-07-09
16:54:58
finding the coupling spot
 
 
另一角度  
 
2012 03  
 
limage
12-07-09
15:25:31
finding the coupling spot
Soundlab貴好很多,又大食好很多,我已前聽過 四塊Audiostatic,幾鍾意。點都好 2013至會買新大喇叭 , 今年買多對 MMG 或 1.7 就有可能。:-).
Cadiver
12-07-09
15:12:13
finding the coupling spot
 
 
Sherblarck 兄:  
 
我的音響室看來跟您的幾乎一模一样,高、濶、長 分別是  
 
2.98 米 x 3.96 米 x 6.5 米  
 
放上屏風 MG 3.5,可以說如魚得水,效果十分理想!  
 
以下是喇叭鋪排,提供參考。假天花板是裝飾用,對音效是沒有作用的。有一點要留意,牆角切勿作任何低音處理,清析的 90 度直角,正正就是完美低週的动感泉源。  
 
Photobucket  
 
limage
12-07-09
15:06:16
finding the coupling spot
 
 
Dominic,  
 
大概一個月後,我都準備試對七呎靜電 Sound Lab。靜電的中音確實晶瑩可人,但Sound Lab 價錢要比 Audiostatic 貴!  
 
limage
12-07-09
14:48:24
finding the coupling spot
李師父,唔好笑我啦,可能我中文有限表達能力低,khorn只係講笑比例。我末買 3.7係我無錢同好想用一對 Audiostatic, still thinking。更大的問題係我今時今日無一個旦 amp大個三十瓦。所以真係該修聲。。。  
:-)
Cadiver
12-07-09
14:26:03
李先生您好!
有李师傅坐镇指导,小可信心大增!等3.7到手了再请教!
Sherblarck
12-07-09
11:44:55
李先生您好!
 
 
Sherblarck:  
 
MG 3.7 得鋁帶高音助陣,高頻方面大可放心,一定更上層樓。至於听室尺寸,愚見認為長度最好能縮短到 6.5 米,避免跟樓高成倍數,誘發嚴重諧震。  
 
香港人自小要学習中、英兩種語文,結果兩邊都不到岸,所謂高的不成,低也不就。很多時為求傳神,遊戲文章少不免再加入港式潮語,互相譏笑一番。看不明白其實沒相干,因為根本是無關重要的啊。  
 
limage
12-07-09
11:01:30
李先生您好!
多谢兄长指导!看来还是用胆后级比较靠谱,只是看到MG老板曾经用bryston推MG,我就照葫芦画瓢了
Sherblarck
12-07-09
10:21:42
finding the coupling spot
 
 
都係當年 klipsh korner horn 好,放各落搞掂。  
____________________________________  
 
 
Cadiver,  
 
Resonances are inescapable in any enclosed space. Instead of trying hard to damp all resonances like many audiophiles or acoustic engineers do, my method is to find the very spot to make the best use of the good resonances to our advantage.  
 
Hifi has to be heard to believe. It’s a pity that you are thousands of miles away, otherwise mutual home visits are all we need to sort things out. Action always speaks more eloquently, I trust.  
 
IMHO, your room is too big for a pair of junior Maggies and dimension wise, it is too dangerously close to a square, the worst case scenario an audiophile would like to fall into.  
 
If you can live with the colorations of the Klipsch Horn, that might be an easy way out. True, there is no speaker placement to bother about and it surely saves you all the time and efforts.  
 
limage
12-07-09
10:17:53
MG20 back on stage
 
 
Leoking’s 20.1 is now singing with great aplomb and the sound is as effortless as a big speaker should. There is of course room for improvement on musicality but bass definition is a definite leap forward.  
 
It’s been a minor pity as the crossbow therapy could not be applied. We were careful not to exert excessive tension but because of this, the pressure was insufficient to overcome the two layers of grille fabric at the front of the speaker.  
 
We did not want to force it through lest it might cause deformation of the magnet plate. So for the moment, we’ll just have to leave it until we could come up with a better idea.  
 
 
limage
12-07-09
10:14:20
李先生您好!
 
 
 
Any report on how Grandma Maggie is doing now?  
 
 
 
cpsjj
12-07-09
09:08:39
李先生您好!
 
 
我是江苏MG爱好者,曾经就MG12向您请教过,现在打算升级3.7,但是在我使用MG12的系统上有两个问题尚未解决,一是高音不够柔顺,甚至有时候会扎耳;二是整体声音不够润泽。不知道升级到3.7以后时候会改善?我的音源是TEAC25+softone胆解码,前级为sonic frontiers sfl-1,后级bryston 4bst,听音室尺寸宽4米,长7米,高3.5米。希望能通过先生的指点解决以上问题,不胜感激!  
 
========================================================  
 
朋友,您好,唔好見怪我多咀插口 ...  
 
我很久以前 (mid 80's) 亦層經前旦後石(Counterpoint + Bryston)推 MG2B。亦層無數次在 showroom & hi-fi show 聽不同的石機推不同的 Magnepan,老實說真沒幾個石配答是好入耳,大 Magnepan 3.x 就如一個方大鏡,把細的好處及懷處一齊提升方大,3.7 絕對靚,但換後現有的問題不會自動解決。各下有沒試過用跟喇叭來的電阻把高音淢一點點,如果這方法有幫助,大概可以從 power amp 入手,搞掂後至考慮 upgrade 3.7. 各下有用 Sonic Frontier 的 Power 2 來一套西裝開聲嗎,不仿一試 ...  
 
Cadiver
12-07-08
23:20:22
李先生您好!
好希望各位香港朋友讨论的时候能尽量用普通话,好让俺们北佬能看个明白,否则只看得字儿个个都认识,可就是不明白说的啥,直急得俺抓耳挠腮,不得要领。呜呜。。。
Sherblarck
12-07-08
23:10:13
Malcolm's English Scottish dance disc
>3) ~14'02"處,隱晦但持續約近20秒...  
4) ~16'45"處,也是隱晦但持續的...(地板有些微震動,但可能是地台做得差!)  
_____________________________________________________  
 
Hi, 黃思璁,  
 
According to my not too accurate timing, the first one hit right at about 14’ into side 2, while the second, more powerful, one about 45” later. So, your 16’45” maybe a typo, and you actually meant 14’45” instead?  
 
 
 
>我估係大概呢道掛 ... <  
_______________________________________________________  
 
Hi Cadiver.  
 
I think you photo has shown the right position; actually it is more like 3/5 into side 2 rather than half way!  
 
thekong
12-07-08
22:36:02
finding the coupling spot
Master Lee  
邊駛對唔住咁嚴重,我理解錯誤就真,不過我都明解,不過有時又把一些方法數據化,總言之就係有捷徑,finding the coupling spot.  
 
嘩. 若果放段片上. Youtube 有冇得稔啞師父...^_^
15a
12-07-08
21:14:50
李先生您好!
我是江苏MG爱好者,曾经就MG12向您请教过,现在打算升级3.7,但是在我使用MG12的系统上有两个问题尚未解决,一是高音不够柔顺,甚至有时候会扎耳;二是整体声音不够润泽。不知道升级到3.7以后时候会改善?我的音源是TEAC25+softone胆解码,前级为sonic frontiers sfl-1,后级bryston 4bst,听音室尺寸宽4米,长7米,高3.5米。希望能通过先生的指点解决以上问题,不胜感激!
Sherblarck
12-07-08
19:45:11
finding the coupling spot
我又想了解另一點,resonant 同 coupling 係點樣分? 唔同 frequency唔係該在唔同位 couple 嗎。依然好唔明。都係當年 klipsh korner horn 好,放各落搞掂。該話今日的 Audio Note speakers 一般都係咁放,方便家人 .... 我對啦叭擺位真係覺得好頭痛,可以間單 講,點擺都唔爽,一隻碟靚一隻碟衰跟著又一隻碟係行來行去。搞掂隻袞好個隻又變壞,無孚。所以真係想學好呢樣基礎。
Cadiver
12-07-08
12:10:25
finding the coupling spot
 
 
用 频譜儀 來度房間效應  
__________________  
 
 
15a:  
 
對不起,沒給你解釋清楚。我找尋的並非音色平衡,更不是頻率嚮應。這些基本動作已於上次家訪時用心聆聽了。  
 
我尋覓的是房間的聚焦點,也就是房間的交連點,對於發揮全面音效,猶如鎖匙一樣,是成敗的關鍵。我们一向強調喇叭擺位,但要每個位置逐一嘗試,不單只費時失事,更往往令人十分沮喪。我這個獨門秘技,快而準,應該算是捷徑罷!  
 
 
limage
12-07-08
09:35:45
finding the coupling spot
煥樓前,梗係請父去聽聽,,,省回幾球架...^-^  
_________________________________________  
 
15a,  
 
你都幾巴閉。買樓可以帶對喇叭去,仲要請大師去交連埋先落訂。  
 
服!!  
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````  
更正,更正.....  
 
未煥樓前至真....^-^  
 
買樓聽Hi-Fi ,就要請教埋 肥強 師兄先得 ..haha...  
15a
12-07-07
13:26:13
finding the coupling spot
 
 
煥樓前,梗係請父去聽聽,,,省回幾球架...^-^  
_________________________________________  
 
15a,  
 
你都幾巴閉。買樓可以帶對喇叭去,仲要請大師去交連埋先落訂。  
 
服!!  
 
 
cpsjj
12-07-07
12:33:48
finding the coupling spot
小弟也顺便謝過 ,Master Lee 那天給我蚊衫尾兼過料...  
 
師父用來揾位隻馬拉歌 ,由高致底全频豐富, 再有小提琴及其他曲目參考 , 其實見很多燒友,,包括我自己也有用 频譜儀 來度房間效應,,有時會問用對耳有冇儀器咁準啊...  
不過最终, 频譜儀係唔識去音樂會 , 未聽過小提琴,大提琴 ,,所以最終都要用耳去感覺音色,,,煥樓前,梗係請父去聽聽,,,省回幾球架...^-^
15a
12-07-07
12:04:16
finding the coupling spot
 
 
Yes Dominic, here you are:  
 
“Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about ¼ from the back wall, and ¼ the breadth roughly. Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.  
 
Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you’ve entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point.  
 
Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot. You’ve just coupled your speakers to your room. What is left, may be the crucial part yet, is to find the perfect stereo seat. As the name suggests, you’ll have to look for the widest stereo soundstage again along the aisle, between the speakers. If one side of the room does not give you the best definition and soundstage, try the other side. Chances are that you may be listening on the wrong side of your room.  
 
Final note, if you are unable to find the focal spot despite trekking up and down diligently the whole afternoon, your room dimension is probably too bad to be a listening room. Try another room if you have one. If not you’ll have to move house.”  
 
---------------  
 
A squarish room is normally not desirable for music listening. Do try to make it a rectangle if you can. Besides, the rule of 1/3 rarely works well with speaker placement. A ratio of 40-60 should be much better unless you are using vintage horn systems which have to be placed against the wall.  
 
limage
12-07-07
08:43:08
Malcolm's English Scottish dance disc
Master Lee,  
 
Can you repost a quick procedure of finding the coupling spot please. I know it's something about walking up and down center line and standing and crawling but when do you move the speaker back & forth and left and right ?? where exactly to put the speaker when you find the cancelling spot. I am confuse. Last time I mess with that, my speaker ended up in the middle of the room ! :-)  
 
I have an ugly square room 22 X 24 ft. ths short side wall is where I place the equipments and speakers, sitting position facing equipments. Right now I am roughly 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Speaker 1/3 into the room, sit in 1/3 from the back wall. Actually speaker about 5 ft from back wall. sitting position about 6 ft from back wall. Last time I sweep & measure the room I have a dip at 50hz and a slight raise at 100hz, but overall 20-20K are realitvely flat within 10db. I want to find a stronger coupling point, tighter images,  
 
Please advise and thank you !  
Dominic
Cadiver
12-07-07
06:33:16
Malcolm's English Scottish dance disc
 
 
在黃某的mid-fi裡,同一大鼓,Side B(~24 min total)「似乎」.........  
_____________________________________________________  
 
 
思璁兄:  
 
實情有冇三十週殊不要緊。倒不如先集中火力,攪好中低頻段 (即是由 50 至 100 週) 的結像,好使音樂更富彈跳,更具旋律。  
 
愚見以為先從喇叭擺位着眼,更為重要。  
 
limage
12-07-06
15:53:17
MG20 back on stage
嘩!準備出黯然銷魂掌!  
______  
 
硬o野無咁快出既!
icefox
12-07-06
14:30:41
MG20 back on stage
 
 
...................quite strangely it spread over almost 12 inches in stead of the usual fine line of one or two inches  
________________________________________________________________________________________________  
 
Isn't that called depth of field? Now we are able to draw the analogy between audio and optics. Aren't we one step closer to the great Unified Theory!  
 
 
 
cpsjj
12-07-06
12:01:10
MG20 back on stage
 
 
There was only one focal point found in leoking's room and quite strangely it spread over almost 12 inches in stead of the usual fine line of one or two inches. It made coupling relatively easy but subsequent fine tuning would likely to take some more time because of this focal length. Within that spread, leoking may have to move the speakers back and forth like what you do with manual focusing to get things in perfect focus.  
 
When the Magicos were moved to this coupling spot, everything started to integrate into one huge organic sound field and music became alive throughout the room. I guess I don't have to worry about the dynamics which are prodigious. It's the other end, the finesse which requires tweaking. Hopefully, when Lady Maggie starts to sing tomorrow, details would be better delineated through the magic spell of her ribbons.  
 
 
limage
12-07-06
11:40:31
MG20 back on stage
 
 
嘩!準備出黯然銷魂掌!  
 
cpsjj
12-07-06
10:04:23